Libya: Coalition Building

2003′s invasion of Iraq (40 nations)?
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How many shot bullets or dropped bombs on bad guys? Anything else is just window dressing and bean counting.

“Obama’s Libyan enterprise has the smallest coalition of the lot — 15 nations as of right now, compared to… 2003′s invasion of Iraq (40 nations)”
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And what an awesome “coalition” that was.

The Second Persian Gulf War,. also known as the Iraq War, Mar.–Apr., 2003, was a largely U.S.-British invasion of Iraq…
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Despite much international opposition, including increasingly rancorous objections from France, Germany, and Russia, the United States and Britain continued their military buildup in areas near Iraq, insisting that Iraq was hiding weapons of mass destruction. Turkey, which the allies hoped to use as a base for a northern front in Iraq, refused to allow use of its territory, but most Anglo-American forces were in place in Kuwait and other locations by March. After failing to win the explicit UN Security Council approval desired by Britain (because Britons were otherwise largely opposed to war), President Bush issued an ultimatum to Iraqi president Hussein on Mar. 17, and two days later the war began with an airstrike against Hussein and the Iraqi leadership. Ground forces (almost exclusively Anglo-American and significantly smaller than the large international force assembled in the first war) began invading the following day, surging primarily toward Baghdad, the southern oil fields, and port facilities; a northern front was opened by Kurdish and airborne Anglo-American forces late in March.

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0838511.html

How many of the “participants” in the 2003 “coalition” were effectively bribed for their membership in the “coalition of the willing”?

The GOP had a big coalition in the 2010 election, how did that turn out? It turned out that they lied, again.

Because Rogin’s post lists the number of nations participating, without looking at involvement in terms of level of authority or amount of participation, it is completely worthless.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq#List_of_nations_in_the_coalition
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Australia: 2,000 invasion (withdrawn 7/09)
United Kingdom: 46,000 invasion (withdrawn 7/09)
Romania: 730 peak (deployed 7/03-withdrawn 7/09)
El Salvador: 380 peak (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 1/09)
Estonia: 40 troops (deployed 6/05-withdrawn 1/09)
Bulgaria: 485 peak (deployed 5/03-withdrawn 12/08)
Moldova: 24 peak (deployed 9/03-withdrawn 12/08)
Albania: 240 troops (deployed 4/03-withdrawn 12/08)
Ukraine: 1,650 peak (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 12/08)
Denmark: 545 peak (deployed 4/03-withdrawn 12/08)
Czech Republic: 300 peak (deployed 12/03-withdrawn 2/08)
South Korea: 3,600 peak (deployed 5/03-withdrawn 12/08)
Japan: 600 troops (deployed 1/04-withdrawn 12/08)
Tonga: 55 troops (deployed 7/04-withdrawn 12/08)
Azerbaijan: 250 peak (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 12/08)
Singapore: 175 offshore (deployed 12/03-withdrawn 12/08)
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 85 peak (deployed 6/05-withdrawn 11/08)
Macedonia: 77 peak (deployed 7/03-withdrawn 11/08)
Latvia: 136 peak (deployed 5/03-withdrawn 11/08)
Poland: 200 invasion—2,500 peak (withdrawn 10/08)
Kazakhstan: 29 troops (deployed 9/03-withdrawn 10/08)
Armenia: 46 troops (deployed 1/05-withdrawn 10/08)
Mongolia: 180 peak (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 09/08)
Georgia: 2,000 peak (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 8/08)
Slovakia: 110 peak (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 12/07)
Lithuania: 120 peak (deployed 6/03-withdrawn 08/07)
Italy: 3,200 peak (deployed 7/03-withdrawn 11/06)
Norway: 150 troops (deployed 7/03-withdrawn 8/06)
Hungary: 300 troops (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 3/05)
Netherlands: 1,345 troops (deployed 7/03-withdrawn 3/05)
Portugal: 128 troops (deployed 11/03-withdrawn 2/05)
New Zealand: 61 troops (deployed 9/03-withdrawn 9/04)
Thailand: 423 troops (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 8/04)
Philippines: 51 troops (deployed 7/03-withdrawn 7/04)
Honduras: 368 troops (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 5/04)
Dominican Republic: 302 troops (deployed 8/03-withdrawn 5/04)
Spain: 1,300 troops (deployed 4/03-withdrawn 4/04)
Nicaragua: 230 troops (deployed 9/03-withdrawn 2/04)
Iceland: 2 troops (deployed 5/03-withdrawal date unknown)

This is Wikipedia, not the voice of God, but still. 7 countries with more than 1,000 deployed, another three with 500-1000. And, of course, the all-important two people from Iceland, two dozen from Moldova, and 55 from Tonga.
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The current mission doesn’t involve deploying over 100,000 American troops, has UN SC approval, and is now being led by NATO. Only a fool, or a Rogin, could argue that this mission is less multilateral than the invasion and occupation of Iraq.

Obama’s Libyan enterprise has the smallest coalition of the lot.

Is this important for some reason or is it just a fact you find interesting, Mark? Do tell…

…’cause I’m trying hard to see how deploying 45 Royal Tongan Marines helps maintain a no-fly zone. Or what deploying 4 medics and 10 truck drivers (Lithuania) would do…

If there’s any more of your perceptions that need challenging, Mark, please let us know.

Mark just can’t quit, can he?

Don’t forget the mighty nations of the Lesser Antilles…

Tex’s Conspiratorial Coalition List:
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ABC, NBC, CBS, A-MessNBC, CNN, HLN, ESPN Classic, Deportes, ESPNU, Golf Channel, Versus, DisneyXD, Comedy Central, Sports Illustrated, TIME, DailyLeast, and All Other Media Entities Not Named FLOX.

I hate to correct typos, but:
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“coalition of the willing”?
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It was the “coalition of the billing“?
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Sorry, afguy.
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:)

I’m not bagging those nations’ military capacity. I’m just not seeing what Thompson’s point is, unless he’s just throwing things against the wall to see what sticks…

Mark, this brings us to a bit of a point:
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“More bang for the buck”
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Now, would you mind doing me a favor and tell us just how much money Bush paid for his “Coalition of the Bought”?
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Also, how abut next to it, the amount of money Obama has paid.
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Then, lets see who, among the two coalitions, has pledged to repay some of costs.
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Um, just to head you off at the pass, do not include Iraq’s repayments….

Jesus, Thompson, do you just want Obama to whip his unit out so you can compare sizes?
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Which president has the biggest dick? Inquiring minds want to know!

shepherwong@2,
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But than again, leaders in France, Germany and Russia were not being bribed by Gaddafi as they were by Saddam Hussein.

His contacts must be pushing this crap hard.

afguy@3,
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And what of those who were bribed to stay out with Saddam’s “Oil for Food” cash?

Actually, I should apologize.
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I have a friend from Trinidad and Tobago, and I should have more respect.
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However, the millions Bush threw at them certainly factored into the numbers equation, which Bush was certainly trying to inflate, by whatever means necessary.
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My apologies to anyone from the Lesser Antilles, and I wish to extend my respect to anyone from there who participated in the war. They certainly deserve it.

Actually, it appears that the coalition came together and dragged the reluctant Obama in against his will.

i’ll point out here, paulejb, that Haliburton “lost” far more money then the “Food for Oil” program ever amounted to, and in addition, somehow, Blackwater’s CEO miraculously appeared as one of the richest men in the world.
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Such is the Free Market and GOP Corruption…

fullash!tta, paulejb…

And Thompson’s shoved his nose all the way up their a$$!!

Elvis Elvisberg@2.1,
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What you people refuse to admit is that Barack Hussein Obama went into Libya for flimsier reasons than Bush had for going in to Iraq. .
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Obama’s actions on Libya are a tacit admission that Bush was right on Iraq. There is no getting around it, people.

If ya can’t git him for getting involved, just jump the fence and argue from the other side.
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You need to be summarily slapped to death by hundreds of dwarfs bearing bright yellow gum rubber flip flops for this little bit of gymnastics…

Mark! How is it going with the Imaginary World Obama Is Fjucking Up, anyway?

He’s getting paid. Wonder if he’s secretly in delecto with liberal and 2/3rds rocks?

I am officially declaring that Mark Thompson has been tonguethumped by the Frog Prince…

53_3@3.3,
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Nice try, 53, but no cigar. Leaders in France, Germany and Russia were taking bribes to protect Saddam. Saddam was stupid enough to believe that they would protect him from George W Bush, so he would not compromise. The rest, as they say, is history.

Umm, no, paulejb, that is what you believe.
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FOX told you so!

“Obama’s actions on Libya are a tacit admission that Bush was right on Iraq. There is no getting around it, people.”
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So we’re attaching Libya because they have WMD and harbor terrorists that can use said WMD to attack globally?

Thompson’s posts are beginning to look like the typical anti-Obama racist sh!t.

…and they have a Mighty Air Force that can reach anywhere in the world in 45 minutes?

Links, paulejb, from reputable sources.
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After all, just cause you say so don’t make it so…

“Nice try, 53, but no cigar. Leaders in France, Germany and Russia were taking bribes to protect Saddam. Saddam was stupid enough to believe that they would protect him from George W Bush, so he would not compromise. The rest, as they say, is history.”
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Speaking of history. 1 – what does this have to do with the size of coalition…as if it says anything about what Bush had, Bush the elder before that and now Obama? 2 – I thought we attacked Iraq because of WMD, not food for oil?

FTW

53_3@10.1,
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Barack Obama dithered for a month while Gaddafi was regaining the initiative. Obama expected the Russians or Chinese to block intervention but they threw him a curve by abstaining on the Security Council vote. So, Obama had no choice but to follow the French and Brits into Libya. And that, my friend, is the rest of the story.

Also, that was a nice attempt to change the subject.
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It will avail ye not:
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Remember, there are hundreds of dwarfs coming your way, armed with bright yellow gum rubber flip flops, to paddle your fanny for the transgression…

Ohh, hhhhow hhhhideous!
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Of course, there is the matter of some very delicate geopolitics.
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But of course, paulejb, your denser than most, and FOX doesn’t mention that, or, for that matter, anything that accrues to Obama in a positive fashion.
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You can’t be expected to understand geopolitics…

George W Bush must be laughing like hell as liberals change their tune on the use of force. We haven’t seen such a farce since the American Communist Party went from anti-war to pro-war literally over night as Hitler invaded their spiritual homeland in June 1941.

“Barack Obama dithered for a month while Gaddafi was regaining the initiative. Obama expected the Russians or Chinese to block intervention but they threw him a curve by abstaining on the Security Council vote. So, Obama had no choice but to follow the French and Brits into Libya. And that, my friend, is the rest of the story.”
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Speaking of history – you don’t seem to want us to go there, so what’s your angle? That Obama did, or that Obama was lead by the nose there, that he waited to long? What…I’ve seen the bunch of you ideologues being all over the road on this one from go bomb, but don’t, and you took to long to bomb, now leave etc.
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Just say it – you don’t object to what we’re doing to the world globally; had this been Bush you would have defended it (since you apparently think that Iraq is similar and okay) – you object to Obama doing it. Plain and simple.
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I object to this regardless; we should not waste our resources in something that can turn out being a long civil war. Democracy is messy and no one asked us to pick sides.

“Obama’s actions on Libya are a tacit admission that Bush was right on Iraq. There is no getting around it…”
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That has nothing to do with the price of gas.
Literally.

As I remember, weren’t you against Obama just jumping in?
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Seems to me there were a few things said about costs and such.
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We’ll not mention the facts laid out earlier in this thread.
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Ahyuh! Ahyuh…

Wincing @ the reference, W had Cheney….

And, of course, you and the Insane Right went from Pro War to Anti War in the same week!

I take it you were around at that time, Paulie…

The American Communit Party can do what it wants, paulejb. They are a tiny fraction of the political landscape.
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I’ll admit, not as tiny as either your brain, or the two-man New Black Panther Party…

That’s disgusting, foghorn…

53_3@10.4,
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“…very delicate geopolitics” is not usually dealt with by launching cruise missiles and dropping 1000 Lb bombs..
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1. What is America’s national interest in interfering in a Libyan civil war?
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2. What is the goal of the intervention?
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3. When will it end?
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4. Who will pay for it?
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5. Is it a “war for oil?
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6. Why did Obama “let slip the dogs of war” and leave on a jaunt to Brazil?
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7. Why did Obama not address the issue until tonight?
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8. When did you hippie peaceniks become Rambo?

@9.4: …said the perpetrator, sarcastically ;)

I have to admit:
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paulejb is having a rough day of it. Getting tonguethumped by the Frog Prince in concert with Mark, getting continually beaten over the head with those danged facts, and being chased by hundreds of dwarfs armed with bright yellow gum rubber beach thongs just itching to paddle his fanny for his thoroughly wild mental gymnastics…

hippooath@10.5,
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See 10.7…
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George W Bush spent months making the case for the invasion of Iraq. He went to Congress to get their authorization. He created a huge coalition to follow America’s lead. He gained the approval of leading Democrats to use force..
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Barack Hussein Obama has stumbled into Libya with no way to get out.

Social Democrat Eric Blair, AKA author George Orwell would be turning over in his grave if he could see this Republican about face in unison against the Libyan no-fly zone.
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Iraq was about Bush unilaterally going into Iraq, bribing a few countries along the way using “curveball” as a source of information.
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This was an atrocity like that in Rwanda in 1994, but with a president and international community that paid attention.
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http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/13/60minutes/main20042166.shtml
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One man vs thousands of cameras.
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Which should bring us into military actions?

53-3 & nflfoghorn @13.1, 31.2 & 13.3,
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“Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
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You boys just don’t see the irony at all, do you?

“Barack Hussein Obama has stumbled into Libya with no way to get out.”
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We aren’t putting ground troops into Libya.
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How do you get an airplane out of airspace?
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You fly away.
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How do you get over controlling an entire country…. that’s much harder.
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Also, the Coalition of the billing lead by Bush bribing other countries to join us is not the same as a UN Resolution not initiated by the US.
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Your comparison is weak at best.

patricksartor@15,
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A bit over the top even for you, Pat. 500,000 people were slain in Rwanda. There were very few casualties in the Libyan civil war when we intervened.

53_3@14,
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What facts, sparky? I have seen nothing resembling a fact in your comments. Perhaps you could list a few for us.

ANSWERS TO PAULIE’S QUESTIONS:

1. Stopping genocide.
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2. See #1.
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3. Hopefully within 3 months.
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4. Each nation in the coalition.
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5. Nope.
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6. Pre-scheduled event that hopefully will produce jobs for the US down the road. (Jobs – remember THEM??) If he visited your back yard he can also be president there, too.
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7. I’m sure he’ll address that tonight.
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8. “Murdoch…I’m comin’ to get YOU.”

“…very delicate geopolitics” is not usually dealt with by launching cruise missiles and dropping 1000 Lb bombs..
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Wow, so even though you’re p!ssed that he took so long, you are also p!ssed because he actually went to war?
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Would you kindly explain yourself? Do you look at yourself in the mirror, or does the mirror look at you and tell you what to do each day?
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“1. What is America’s national interest in interfering in a Libyan civil war?”
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It’s a decision, after exercising caution with respect to geopolitics and a dangerously unstable situation, entered into by several nation who were NOT paid anything to participate. Also, see above about your new-found hippie pecenik sentiments…
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2. What is the goal of the intervention?
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What was the goal of the post-Desert Storm NFZ mission? You’ll find your answer there.
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3. When will it end?
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Don’t you have a direct line in your head that connects you to Glenn Beck, who has a direct line in his head that connects him to Ailes, who has a direct line to God, or Rush Limbaugh, one of the two, anyway. I’m sure one or the other really does know, and it ain’t Rush, I’m thinking…
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4. Who will pay for it?
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Well, unlike Bush’s wasting taxpayer money just assembling the coalition, there is the distinct possibility that some member nations may pay at least part of the bill.
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That’s a lot better than what Bush did, which is just saddle us with 2T debt over it. This promises to be a lot less expensive.
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5. Is it a “war for oil?
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Well, since Libya isn’t our colonial client, and there’s no Haliburton involved, and they aren’t major suppliers of the US, I would guess not.
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6. Why did Obama “let slip the dogs of war” and leave on a jaunt to Brazil?
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Because the affairs of state must go on, and we are not in any danger of being attacked by Libya. Thus, no emergency exists or ever did exist as it relates to this.
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7. Why did Obama not address the issue until tonight?
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Why did the sky not fall?
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8. When did you hippie peaceniks become Rambo?
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Since when did you become a hippe peacenik?

You are certainly more skilled at being succinct. Thx…

“”Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
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I remember the Rwandan Genocide of 1994.
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What are you trying to tell us about remembering… Curveball starting the entire Iraq War, coincidentally just in time for the 2004 elections which Bush was expected to lose?
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I remember what happened in Rwanda and do not wish it to ever happen again.

“There were very few casualties in the Libyan civil war when we intervened.”
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It took years of preparation for the massacre.
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Kadafi was just getting started.
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Do you grasp any of the differences or are you convinced that all liberals are a cartoon character in the previous post?

Mutual admiration, Fitty ;)

nflfoghorn@16,
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1. What evidence was there of genocide and how does that effect America’s national interest?
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2. And if a no-fly zone does not work?
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3. Hopefully???
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4. Really? And you know this how?
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5. Really? Europe has no interest in Libya’s oil?
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6. Obama cancelled overseas trips before for less important reasons than sending Americans into harms way. Obama would help create more jobs by encouraging domestic drilling rather than in Brazil.
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7. I can’t wait.
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8. David Brock and Media Matters is already doing that in contravention of the law.

“They are a tiny fraction of the political landscape”
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So are the progressives yet they are the loudest. Its when you put together all the nit-wit tiny fractions of the left with the intent to undermine American values is when they are the problem.

1. You CANNOT be serious when you ask that.
2 – 8: 53_3@10.10 can expound.

1. You CANNOT be serious when you ask that.
2. – 8: 53_3@10.10 can expound.

“Bush unilaterally going into Iraq, bribing a few countries along the way using “curveball” as a source of information.”
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Still testing positive for stupid. Bush had abigger coalition going into Iraq than Obama’s end around into Libya. Plus Bush had a vote from Congress. Obama still hasn’t told Congress. But then he would have had to stop his real job, the First Tourist.

patricksartor@10.9,
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The absence of ground troops makes the war more palatable for liberals? Is that your criteria for a good war?
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Last I looked, the President of the United States swore an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. There was no mention of the UN resolutions in the oath.

Took me so far aback I posted it twice ;)

16:
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/africa/news/article_1628600.php/EU-leader-pledge-to-help-Libyans-up-pressure-on-Gaddafi
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15(links provided)
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13.5
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curveball_%28informant%29
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10.10, 10.9,
http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/March_16_LibyaDraftResolution2011_1.pdf
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8,3, 3. 3.1
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-02-24-unwilling-cover_x.htm

3.1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton
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2 (links provided)
2.1 (links provided)

53_3@10.10,
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1. Not pissed at all. Barack Hussein Obama always meets the low expectations that I have for him.
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2. When did that become America’s national interest?
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3. And look how well that turned out.
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4. So you are as ignorant as Barack Obama about how long we will be committed.
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5. Are you really that naive or are you just talking through your hat?
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6. So where does Libyan oil go?

7. Barack Hussein Obama thinks so little of American servicemen that he sends them in harms way and then goes on a working vacation to Rio?
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8. Why is Obama always a day late and a dollar short on serious matters like war or an oil spill but shoots off his mouth on matters he knows nothing about like with his friend and the Cambridge cops?
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9. Liberals going to war would make any sane person nervous.

“1. What evidence was there of genocide and how does that effect America’s national interest?
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He attacked his own people.
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Also, “America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great!”
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We must be the leading country at preventing genocide if we are going to be not just feared, but loved.
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“2. And if a no-fly zone does not work?”
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This is more than your daddy’s no fly zone. Any military vehicle or soldiers en mass crossing will be destroyed – not just aircraft. But, if there is a way to circumvent this and Kadafi succeeds somehow, we will coordinate with other countries and with the rebels for a solution using as few troops as possible.
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“5. Really? Europe has no interest in Libya’s oil?”
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European leaders are far more weary of going to war than the far right of the US and, if they wanted more oil, they would have joined the US in large numbers into Iraq to grab that oil, too.
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There isn’t a special flavor to Libyan oil that Europeans like better. It’s the same light, sweet crude they turned down going to war for in 2003.
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“6. Obama cancelled overseas trips before for less important reasons than sending Americans into harms way. Obama would help create more jobs by encouraging domestic drilling rather than in Brazil.”
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When the president tries to create jobs in the US, you and your banned of morons call him a communist. So, you should be dancing in the streets with joy that the president is not trying to create jobs.
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“8. When did you hippie peaceniks become Rambo?”
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Well, you should look into your, new, revisionist Republican history book.
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In Republican History, Hitler was liberal trying to improve health care, but, accidentally six million people who, coincidentally, were all Jewish, Gypsies or gay.
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Civil Rights was done by Republicans.
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So, the Hippies were conservative Republicans.
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Don’t forget how Malcolm X was killed by Democrats because he wanted a lower marginal taxation on large corporations.

Thanks, and returned.
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paulejb got his wish at 14.2:
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I nice summary of the facts tossed his way today…

I’m out. Gotta work…

nflfoghorn, patricksartor and all the other new Rambos,
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So, when do we expand the defense of civilians to Syria?

“Still testing positive for stupid. Bush had abigger coalition going into Iraq than Obama’s end around into Libya. Plus Bush had a vote from Congress. Obama still hasn’t told Congress. But then he would have had to stop his real job, the First Tourist.”
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Interesting point. So when you argued doing the right thing and sooner, we should have amassed a bigger coalition a lot quicker and done the right thing, after we told congress we’re going to kick @ss?
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After all, when this began you wrote that we need to do the right thing – now it seems like the right thing is not to do it.

“Bush had abigger coalition going into Iraq than Obama’s end around into Libya.”.
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Bush got 100% of his information from a man nicknamed “curveball” used one man’s lie and billions in bribes to other countries to join us and could not get the UN to believe these lies. Now the UN had lead the US into a war protecting people against being murdered by their own government.
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Bush drove us into a war with lies.
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Obama got pulled into a no-fly zone by the truth.
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Big difference.

“But then he would have had to stop his real job, the First Tourist.”
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Obama goes to other countries to speak with world leaders.
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Bush went spent his time going to his cattle ranch to learn more about Bulls hit. So he could heap more and more of it.

“So, when do we expand the defense of civilians to Syria?”
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Conditions we went into a this no-fly zone:
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1) military slaughtering own civilians.
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2) Rebels seeking peaceful protest as first resort and violence as a last resort.
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3) Rebels explicitly seeking democracy.
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4) UN leads the no-fly zone.
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5) Regional organization – the Arab League – supports action.
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6) NATO supports actions.
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In Iraq we had only one of those conditions:
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1) military slaughtering own civilians. In 1991 after Bush Sr. promised that we would save them if they rebelled – and we didn’t – and in 1988 when the US used taxpayer money to pay Husein for killing Kurds.
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So, we, basically, had none of these conditions.

Oops: One more:
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53_3@10.10,
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1. Not pissed at all. Barack Hussein Obama always meets the low expectations that I have for him.
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Okaaaay. You just hate Obama. we all knew that.
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2. When did that become America’s national interest?
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Already explained @ 10.10. Why repeat?
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3. And look how well that turned out.
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NFZ’s by their nature, are “holding pattern” operations. The NFZ served it’s purpose (weaken Saddam) while awaiting developments there. May I point out that indeed, Saddam Hussein was an “already crushed” dictator when Bush dragged us into Iraq with his lies? ON the ground, Saddams military was found (by the Iraq Survey) to be so badly degraded as to be nearly impotent. So it turned out fine, as limited as it’s purpose was.
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4. So you are as ignorant as Barack Obama about how long we will be committed.
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That’s why I asked you to dial up your Tin Gods.
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5. Are you really that naive or are you just talking through your hat?
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Nope, just one hell hole of a lot smarter than you.
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6. So where does Libyan oil go?
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Europe.

7. Barack Hussein Obama thinks so little of American servicemen that he sends them in harms way and then goes on a working vacation to Rio?
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1. Your hate is showing.
2. No, he trusts the military to handle it.
3. It was a state visit for trade, policy, and economic discussions with the Southern Hemiphere’s largest power.
4. It’s not an emergency.
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8. Why is Obama always a day late and a dollar short on serious matters like war or an oil spill but shoots off his mouth on matters he knows nothing about like with his friend and the Cambridge cops?
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Why do you hate America? Why do you hate Black Americans? Why do you hate the middle class? Why did you side with Big Oil on the spill?
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9. Liberals going to war would make any sane person nervous.
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Well, call earljr1 for the paddles if you go into cardiac arrest.

53_3@14.2,
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http://www.thestar.com.za/syraian-forces-fire_at_deraa-protesters-1.1048500
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What do we do about that?

“….the intent to undermine American values is when they are the problem.”
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Freak, please tell us what is, in your very warped world an “American value”.
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1) Giving the finger to the UN as Bush did and Obama did not.
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2) Preventing genocide as Obama is rather than sending our tax dollars to pay for genocide as Ronald Reagan did in 1988.
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3) Attacking countries to grab oil
.
I consider preventing genocide and defending a democratic revolution “American values” while attacking a country to grab it’s oil – and failing miserably at that to be against our values.

So, 10 days after we start bombing Libya, Obama is finally or once again going to try and explain his reasoning.
.
Or, is he going to read the news?

Here is a picture of Earl.
.
He looks a bit older than 37, but, he has, apparently, been practicing medicine for years:
.
http://www.empireonline.com/images/features/100greatestcharacters/photos/5.jpg

In his “explanation” I seriously doubt the President will quote this:
.
“The president does not have power under the Constitution to
unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not
involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation,”
.
You Libtards better toe the line with the rest of your wingnuts:
.
http://gratewire.com/topic/9-liberal-demcrats-obama-auth-of-libya-military-strikes-unconstitutional

53_3@18,
.
1. How can you hate a buffoon? Obama is too inept to generate hate.
.
2. When do the attacks on Syria begin?
.
3. Russia claims that attacking Gaddafi’s ground forces violate the UN Security Council resolution.
.
4. That’s alright, admit your ignorance. We know, we know.
.
5. Why do I doubt that? Could it be your incoherent defense of the indefensible?
.
6. Ah! So you are not totally clueless.
.
7. Sending men and women into harm’s way is always an emergency.
.
8. Why are you babbling?
.
9. Liberals going to war is like OJ looking for the real killers. It won’t end well.

How about Reagan:
.
He said all he needed was five minutes warning:
.

Unlike you, we do not take marching orders.
.
Ideally he should have consulted congress sooner.
.
Fortunately all of the things he would have to say to congress are true so it would pass except for the most extremist partisans voting against him.

paulejb:
.
Let me know when you decide on the best way to vent your hatred of Obama.
.
I’m guessing that what you should be doing is screaming at the top of your lungs about How Hideous It Is that Obama isn’t canceling everything right at this minute to unilaterally attack Syria right now instead of waiting for the do-nothing UN.
.
But aren’t you smart enough to vent your own hate without asking me how to do it?
.
Do I have to do everything for you?

Hey liberal, how was 2/3rds yesterday?

patricksartor@16.10,
.
So, how did you arrive at the conclusion that Libyan civilians are somehow more worthy than Syrian civilians?.
.
Are Syrian civilians killed by the Syrian military any less dead?
.
Is Syrian lack of oil a factor?
.
The Arab league is already carping from the sidelines.
.
Russia claims that UN Resolution is being violated by ground attacks.
.
Why was Congress not consulted.
.
Why did Obama violate his own understanding of the Constitution?
.
Why did Joe Biden threaten to seek impeachment of Bush if he used force in Iran without Congressional approval?

Paulejb:
.
The lack of content in your response tells me that you lost this debate, and quite badly, I might add…

patricksartor@19.1,
.
So your contention is that this is Obama’s idea of a joke?

patricksartor@20.1,
.
Obama only had a month in which to consult Congress and he was busy preparing for his little jaunt to Rio.

53_3@18.3,
.
What else could you say, 53? You lost on content, logic, historical facts, and style. Your last resort is to declare victory and slink away.

53_3@14.4,
.
How is it that liberals can’t see that tired, old, worn out cliches are not new and original thoughts. Are you people so mindless that parroting the same old, same old seems new to you.
.
You people should have used some of that Obama “stimulus” cash to buy yourselves a clue.

Gentlemen & 53_3,
.
Obama’s adventurism in Libya certainly clouds the issue for the opponents of Bush’s actions in Iraq. Bush had better reasons for going into Iraq than Obama did with Libya. We also were already in a state of war with Iraq and operating under a cease fire which Saddam was violating.

paulejb:
.
It appears by the lack of content in your response, you have lost this debate, and lost it badly.

53_3@3.5,
.
Google “oil for food” bribes. You can take your pick of any of the 373,000 entries.

If there’s anyone willing to buy your claim, paulejb, I won’t stand in their way…

Set paulejb == Charlie Sheen
.
paulejb.(wenning!)

Paulie,
.
Was there a point or examples in 14.5 or was that just a random brain fart put online?

Responding to paulie at 18.2″

1. Obama is too inept to generate hate.”

Puh-leeze, you hate him enough to take any position in opposition to his, regardless of logic or common sense. If a Republican Presiednt were authorizing these attacks, you would be leading the cheers.

“2. When do the attacks on Syria begin?”

It is unlikely that Bashar al-Assed will assault his people to the extent that this sort of intervention is necessary, but if it comes to that, we have workable model for saving lives.

3. Russia claims that attacking Qaddafi’s forces on the ground violates the UN Resolution

1)“So, how did you arrive at the conclusion that Libyan civilians are somehow more worthy than Syrian civilians?”
.
That’s not the issue. International backing is the issue. Entering wars alone is a major problem since our cold war history was, for the lack of better word (unfortunately under both parties) often sinister.
.
2)“Are Syrian civilians killed by the Syrian military any less dead?”.
.
International backing, see above.
.
3)“Is Syrian lack of oil a factor?”
.
No. Bush and Cheney showed that one can be both evil and a complete failure at the same time. Extracting oil from an occupied country with a resistance movement is not feasible.
.
4)“The Arab league is already carping from the sidelines.”
.
We’ll see what the UN has to say and then work it out multilaterally.
.
5)“Russia claims that UN Resolution is being violated by ground attacks.”
.
Russia went from being our enemy to our diplomatic nemeses. They have always been our critics. See “Psychological Projecting”
.
6)“Why was Congress not consulted.”
.
They should have been, but, this is far, far more limited than other actions and the War Powers act does permit a period of time before congress must be consulted. I believe it is 90 days.
.
7)“Why did Obama violate his own understanding of the Constitution?”
.
He hasn’t.

.
8)“Why did Joe Biden threaten to seek impeachment of Bush if he used force in Iran without Congressional approval?”
.
Iran is a very different country. They had a US puppet government. Being “pro-American” in Iran is about as popular as waving the Soviet Flag was in 1950s America. (it would cost you your job or, possibly, your life). So, if we invaded, the internal resistance would end up joining their government to prevent another Shah from taking over. We are unwelcome there.
.
Any more questions?

“So your contention is that this is Obama’s idea of a joke?”
.
No, it is my contention that this is a classic example of Republican double standards and, I believe Reagan was a joke.

“Obama only had a month in which to consult Congress and he was busy preparing for his little jaunt to Rio.”.
.
The two rival hegemonic powers of Latin America are Argentina and Brazil, with Brazil being the more dominant of the two.
.
Calling it “…his little jaunt to Rio.” is just being stupid.
.
He had very little time before both the Arab League and The United Nations approved our joining the no fly zone.
.
He could have done more, but, canceling a trip to the most important country in one of the world’s most populate regions would have been uncalled for.
.
However, if I am not mistaken, according the War Powers Act, he has 90 days to consult congress. So, although not ideal, this is tolerable.

“Bush had better reasons for going into Iraq than Obama did with Libya.”
.
Then too bad he squandered them by fear-mongering the country with lies about non-existent weapons of mass destruction and ties to al Qaeda.

Hey Paul,

Did Reagan get Congressional approval before he bombed Libya in 1986?

Was the U.S. in imminent danger that Gaddafi would attack us in 1986?

Did Reagan get Congressional approval before he invaded Granada?

We were told that American medical students were in imminent danger. What there any basis for any of that or just a convenient excuse?

Was there Congressional approval to create a No-Fly-Zone over Iraq?

When a President has taken military action, has there ever been a time when Congress did not sanction his actions, no matter how faulty?

Can you answer “Yes” to any of these questions with a straight face?

“Google “oil for food” bribes.”
.
Oh this sounds like fun. Then google “pallets cash Iraq” if you want to learn about real, world-class, neoconservative bribery, American style.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/feb/08/usa.iraq1

“Barack Hussein Obama thinks so little of American servicemen that he sends them in harms way and then goes on a working vacation to Rio?”
.
American servicemen have been in harm’s way since before there was an America, @sshole. That hasn’t prevented any Commander-in-Chief from doing the rest of his job.

“How is it that liberals can’t see that tired, old, worn out cliches are not new and original thoughts”
.
We do – we keep pointing yours out to you but you keep repeating it like a wind up toy.

Libtards can’t march; they only move in one direction: To the left.

It took ten days, liberalmeltdown, for his writers to provide the material he will deliver tonight. (with considerable help from his trusty teleprompter)
In a nut shell:
one: Because going to war makes me look very “macho”! (and I need all the help I can get here)
two: This is change you can believe in!
three: Hillary said I had to.
four: Joe, Harry and Nancy said the same thing.
five: So did Michele.
Six: War time makes me look very presidential
seven: The French did it and said I would be a “sissie” if I didn’t join them.
eight: Gadhafi is anti union.
nine: Who counts the additional expense, anyway?
ten: The mid east NEEDED another war!

20.4 Psychiatric meltdown has no point at all. He is confessing to losing a debate.
.
If you play nicely you can try again tomorrow.

Earl,
.
You do badly enough as a fake doctor.
.
Please, don’t try to be a fake David Letterman. Leave that to the professionals.
.
But a non-humorous list:
.
1) Murdering his own people caught by thousands of cameras.
.
2) Arab League is asking us to help them clearing up any potential crusader propaganda against us and getting us nominal assistance in addition to places to land, take off and fuel.
.
3) The UN. The world would start waving American flags and shouting “U S A” and carrying signs saying “Support US Troops” if we go, rather than getting us spit on as we did when we invaded Iraq.
.
4) Democracy is the ultimate “American value”,.
.
5) If Reagan wasn’t such a coward we would have blown this guy up twenty five years ago right after we cut and run out of Beirut.

And you can only go in one direction, liberal.
.
Apparently, that direction is, uh, if I may I so delicately put it, after yesterday’s little “session” with 2/3rds:
.
down…

Gee, patrick, Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people, many with mustard gas resulting in horrendous death and you liberals never raised an eyebrow. How convenient that you suddenly develop a conscious.

patricksartor@20.3,
.
Obama could have saved himself a trip by simply encouraging domestic drilling rather than investing time and money in Brazil’s oil program..
.
It is amazing how much you find tolerable with Barack Hussein Obama that you would have declared intolerable with George W Bush.
.
Gitmo, lack of transparency, ignoring Congress when using force, the Bush tax cuts, now Obama’s.
.
Just how much slack does Obama get?

53_3@22,
.
Ad hominems and gratuitous insults. The last refuge of a liberal losing the argument. Aren’t you going to call me a “racist,” 53?

fhmadvocat@19.4,
.
1. Does this look like there was no consultation?
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Libya_Bombing_Reagan_Meeting_14_March_1986
.
2. The bombing of the “La Belle” nightclub was carried out by Libyan agents and was directed at US serviceman. Two of which were killed.
.
3 Imminent threat to American lives. Covered under War Powers Act.
.
4. No fly-zone over Iraq was an extension of the cease fire agreement with Iraq.
.
5. The point is not that the President receives ex post facto approval, but that he respects the Constitution in matters of the use of force.
.
Any more questions for me, fhm?

@19.8,
.
Okay, try this instead…
.
http://upload.wikipedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Libya_Bombing_Reagan_Meeting_14-March_1986.jpg.
.
The date of the meeting was actually April 14, 1986. One day before the bombing commenced.

Gee, patrick, Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people, many with mustard gas resulting in horrendous death and you liberals never raised an eyebrow. How convenient that you suddenly develop a conscious.

.
Interesting that you should bring that up.
.

The al-Anfal Campaign (Arabic: حملة الأنفال‎), also known as Operation Anfal or simply Anfal, was a genocidal[3] campaign against the Kurdish people (and many other ethnic groups) in Northern Iraq, led by the Iraqi regime of Saddam Hussein and headed by Ali Hassan al-Majid in the final stages of Iran-Iraq War. The campaign takes its name from Surat al-Anfal in the Qur’an, which was used as a code name by the former Iraqi Baathist regime for a series of systematic attacks against the Kurdish population of northern Iraq, conducted between 1986 and 1989 and culminating in 1988. The campaign also targeted other minority communities in Iraq including Shabaks, Yazidis, Jews, Mandeans and Turcomans, and many villages belonging to these ethnic groups were also destroyed.

.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign
.
In Response to this Republican president Ronald Reagan sent him our tax money to thank him.
.
Gee, Earl, Saddam murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people, many with mustard gas resulting in horrendous death and youconservatives sent Husein my tax money in appreciation How convenient that you suddenly develop a conscious when having a conscious would help W get re-elected.
.
BTW: If Husein was executed for gassing the Kurds in 1988, why wasn’t Bush Sr. hanged next to Husein and Reagan’s body disinterred since both of them kept on sending our tax dollars to Husein after the attacks.
.
Oh, I forgot, genocide funded by Republicans is just dandy.

.

It is amazing how much you find tolerable with Barack Hussein Obama that you would have declared intolerable with George W Bush.

.
When did W give aid to Brazil?
.
If so, when did Democrats say that Bush should not give aid to Brazil?
.
Your making things up.
.
We are very pleased for the most part that BP will not cause another environmental catastrophe in the Gulf.
.
When did W slow down an economic activity to protect the environment?
.
Your making up more crap.

Gitmo… the Bush tax cuts, now Obama’s.
.
What blogs were you reading?
.
Here on Swampland, liberals were infuriated by Gitmo and the continuing of Bush’s tax cuts.
.
You must have been listening to Rush Limbaugh’s Barack the magic Negro and mistaken him for real. Either that or you confused us with a Scooby Doo character.
.

It is amazing how much you find tolerable with Barack Hussein Obama that you would have declared intolerable with George W Bush.
.
“.. lack of transparency…”
.
When was Obama accused of this?
.
“… ignoring Congress when using force…”
.
When was W accused of this?
.
It was said in advance that if Bush went into Iran – which he could not do with Democratic majorities in both houses – using troops in order to get a McCain victory, there would be impeachment hearings.
.
W was never accused of this.
.
You do know that this is Swampland, right?
.
This isn’t a blog of make believe liberals like the one in the video.

Paulie,
.
If you wish to accused liberals of hypocrisy, please stick to things real life liberals said.
.
According to Rush Limbaugh, all liberals were watching Dancing with the Stars and – not only that – were infuriated that Sarah Palin’s daughter was doing so well.
.
Well, I would rather stare at a blank wall than watch Dancing with the Stars, so, according to Rush, I must be a conservative. Also, if Sarah Palin’s daughter did well, all I would think is that at least there is one member of the Palin family who is not totally useless and has some talent.
.
So, I guess I am conservative to you and only your imaginary friends are liberal.

Ad hominems and gratuitous insults are about 90% of what the right wing has to add to this blog.
.
“Aren’t you going to call me a “racist,” 53?”
.
You haven’t gone on a long diatribe about how the Japanese people should be killed or how the “sleeping white giant” will stand up to immigrants from outside of Europe coming into the US.
.
So, after you start saying racist things, 53 will call you a racist.

The response from Reagan was pathetic, at best. It was an act of omission rather than commission and sanctions against Iraq were slow in coming and there is no excuse for this, at all.
I make no excuses for the “non action” by Reagan.
However, when GWB got a bellyful of Saddam’s continued brutal assault on the Kurds and Shiites (after Bill Clinton ignored these attacks for eight years) Liberals were outraged that force was used to overthrow this dictator. So sanctimonious condemnation of GWB and republicans, sounds suspiciously hollow after eight years of democrats “turning the other cheek” to genocide, just as Reagan did.

“Liberals were outraged that force was used to overthrow this dictator.”
.
What country did you say you lived, in Earl.
.
Liberals were outraged that so many civilian causalities was used to help Bush get re-elected.
.
The mass killings stopped after the 1991 uprising at the urging of Bush Sr.
.
“…when GWB got a bellyful of Saddam’s continued brutal assault on the Kurds and Shiites (after Bill Clinton ignored these attacks for eight years)…”
.
Interesting re-writing of history Earl,

In April 1991, after Saddam lost control of Kuwait in the Persian Gulf War, he cracked down ruthlessly against several uprisings in the Kurdish north and the Shia south. His forces committed wholesale massacres and other gross human rights violations against both groups similar to the violations mentioned before. Estimates of deaths during that time range from 20,000 to 100,000 for Kurds, and 60,000 to 130,000 for Shi’ites.[5]

.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Saddam_Hussein%27s_Iraq#Documented_human_rights_violations_1979.E2.80.932003
.

So sanctimonious condemnation of GWB and republicans, sounds suspiciously hollow after eight years of democrats “turning the other cheek” to genocide, just as Reagan did.

.
Let’s fix that for reality:
.

So sanctimonious condemnation of Hussein and anti-war Democrats, sounds suspiciously hollow after Bush Sr. “turning the other cheek” to genocide, just as Reagan did.

.
Now that would be right.
.
All Husein did was violate the Geneva accord after 1991 which is, exactly what W did in Gitmo, Iraq and Afghanistan!
.
Husein was hanged for crimes paid for by US tax dollars and, later, for crimes which happened while US troops were right across the border in Kuwait!
.
Be real, Earl.
.
1) Nothing serious happened in Iraq when Clinton and W were in office before the 2003 invasion.
.
2) It was Bush Sr. who, like Reagan, stood by and let the Kurds get murdered – not Clinton.
.
3) We went in to avoid a mushroom cloud vividly described over and over again by the descriptions of an unstable Iraqi man codenamed “curveball” (more like “screwball”).
.
4) If Bush’s ratings weren’t so bad that any Democrat could defeat him in peacetime, W would have not gone in there.
.
It was a war to get Bush re-elected – nothing less, nothing more. It had nothing to do with Husein’s killing of the Kurds since they stopped in 1991.

Earl,
.
If you are 39, then you were the same age as the soldiers in the first Gulf War who, in 1991 were horrified to hear the screams off in the distance of Southern Shiites being murdered and news of the Kurds having the same fate.
.
The movie “Three Kings” was about this. Of course it was fiction, but, the killings were real.
.
You’d also know that the many humanitarians from liberal democrats to the pope were deeply offended that the sanctions were killing Iraqis left and right.
.
Husein didn’t need bullets. He just didn’t deliver food if he wanted people to die during the Clinton years.
.
Since Clinton, like Obama, would bend over backwards – or, sometimes just bend over – to please Republicans, he kept up the sanctions.
.
But, those same humanitarians, including the pope all knew that the Iraqis held the US government responsible for the mass starvation the sanctions caused and would not welcome us.
.
Were you living in the United States in the 1990s?

You say the killings stopped after 1991 and this is simply not true, patrick. The killing of Shiites and Kurds continued until the very last days of Saddam’s reign of terror.
His son, Uday, headed a vicious group called fayadeen Saddam and they were responsible for killing thousands of innocent people. They were vicious and frequently beheaded their victims with a sword in public places.
It is estimated that Sadaam and his henchmen, killed over one million people, sometimes for not bowing quickly enough. Mind you…one million in a country of only 22 million.
Staggering statistics are they not? He and his sons were vicious animals who took pleasure in their victims plight.
I have surgery at seven, so enough of this for tonight.

“You say the killings stopped after 1991 and this is simply not true, patrick.”
.
Links?
.
No?
.
Don’t tell me, W source “Curveball” said this.
.
“I have surgery at seven, so enough of this for tonight.”
.
Well I hope the frontal lobotomy works this time. Your delusions that you are an educated man are very tiresome and probably very disturbing to people who know you in person as well.
.
Best of luck to your doctors!