Target Libya: Operation 'Odyssey Dawn' Begins

The pre-war status of Libya's air-defense network / Sean O'Connor

Last Updated: Sunday, 6:17 a.m.

U.S. and British warships launched a barrage of cruise missiles Saturday against Libyan air defenses. It is designed to suppress the threatening systems, and the communications nodes tying them together, before an international no-fly zone is imposed over Libya to protect civilians from attack by forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi as he clings to power.

“Today I authorized armed forces of the United States to begin a limited military action in Libya in support of an international effort to protect the Libyan civilians,” President  Obama said from Brazil. “As I said yesterday, we will not, I repeat, we will not deploy any U.S. troops on the ground.”

A senior Pentagon official offered limited details of what the Pentagon is calling Operation Odyssey Dawn. “Earlier this afternoon over 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles fired from both U.S. and British ships and submarines struck more than 20 integrated air defense systems and other air defense facilities ashore,” Vice Admiral William Gortney, director of the joint staff, told reporters.

The strikes hit targets largely along Libya’s Mediterranean coast. Additional attacks are likely before allied aircraft – largely European, with a smattering of Arab – begin flying the no-fly zone. The opening wave hit targets concentrated around Tripoli, the capital and where Gaddafi resides, as well as Misurata and Benghazi, a pair of rebel strongholds. For his part, Gaddafi has vowed retaliation, saying early Sunday that he would open arms depots to the people in order to defend Libya. Gaddafi said that the U.N. charter provides the nation the right to defend itself in a “war zone,” and maintained that Libyans are ready to die for him. And in an address on Libyan state TV, he said Western forces had no right to attack Libya, which had done nothing to them. Readying for a “long war,” Gaddafi said “We will fight inch by inch.”

Washington is looking to hand the operation of the no-fly zone over to its international partners, Pentagon officials said, and only played a major role in the opening salvo because its radar-killing – and electronic jamming – capabilities are unparalleled. “We anticipate the eventual transition of leadership to a coalition commander in the coming days,” Gortney said. “Our mission now is to shape the battle space in such a way that our partners can take the lead in execution.” Gen. Norton Schwartz, the Air Force chief of staff, told Congress last week that setting up the no-fly zone could take “upwards of a week” of attacks on Libya’s air-defense networks.

The initial  attacks came in the wake of a 22-nation summit in Paris, led by France, Britain and the U.S. All “agreed to put in place all the means necessary, in particular military” to make Gaddafi halt attacks on civilians, French President Nicolas Sarkozy said. Gaddafi ignored the UN resolution after Thursday’s passage, and his forces continued to attack rebel positions in Benghazi and other rebel redoubts into the weekend. The first sorties are to be flown by French, British and Canadian planes, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte told the BBC, to be joined eventually by other NATO nations. U.S. military assets are largely providing intelligence and logistical support.

Many nations are committing aircraft to help attack Libyan targets in the sky and on the ground: Canada is sending six F-18s, Spain will let two of its bases be used, Britain is deploying Tornado and Typhoon warplanes, as well as aerial tankers and refueling tankers; Qatar will contribute Mirage fighters to the effort; Belgium is sending six F-16s; Italy is letting seven of its bases be used by allied aircraft against Libya; Denmark is contributing six F-16s; the Netherlands have basically said they are “going Dutch” and will contribute whatever is needed. Even Germany – which didn’t approve of the no-fly zone – may send aircrews to Afghanistan to free up U.S. crews for Libyan missions.

The U.S. military has more than a half-dozen warships involved, with hundreds of cruise missiles and airplanes ready to be deployed. It marks the third war the U.S. is now waging – or helping to wage – in a Muslim land. But there’s a big difference this time. You could discern it in Obama’s comments Friday as he warned Muammar Gaddafi to back off:

We will provide the unique capabilities that we can bring to bear to stop the violence against civilians, including enabling our European allies and Arab partners to effectively enforce a no-fly zone.

In other words, the U.S. is just tagging along  – it’s other nations that are going to do the heavy lifting: “enabling our European allies and Arab partners to effectively enforce a no-fly zone.”

Like all choices when it comes to waging war, this option is fraught with opportunity and peril. It lets the U.S. participate, but in a minor key. It’s about time, many Americans will say. Why should the U.S. always be the lone cop walking the global beat? We can save money, anxiety, and lives by letting others shoulder more of the burden.

But there’s the downside, as well. By assuming a subordinate position, Washington is trying to have its cake (save the Libyans!), and eat it, too (at minimal risk to us):

– It diminishes the U.S. role as the world’s lone superpower (so does Obama’s March 3 demand that Gaddafi leave office without him doing so, at least so far). Many will view this as a good thing, as the world becomes more multi-polar, but it is a real cost.

– With Britain and France in the lead, the U.S. will have less control over what happens.

– The operation is taking place under UN Resolution No. 1973, which is interesting: 1973 was the year Congress passed the War Powers Resolution, demanding that a President consult with Congress before deploying forces for any extended military operation. In this case, the Obama Administration consulted far more extensively with its allies in foreign capitals than it did with Congress. That’s one key reason why the U.S. will hang back, militarily: Obama could end up in real trouble, politically – perhaps mortally — if any U.S. military personnel gets killed or captured in the Libyan operation.

This diplomatic dilletantism could cause problems for the President. An early volley came from Christopher Caldwell in Saturday’s Financial Times (registration required) under the headline “A War To Die For But Not Control”:

Mr Obama’s multilateral approach to world order may look more legitimate in the eyes of the world, in the sense that it is more “legislated”. In the eyes of Americans, such an approach looks less legitimate. Relatively speaking, it separates control of international missions from the people, and from the class of people, who will die on them.

This drumbeat will continue in Sunday’s Washington Post – under the headline “As global crises mount, Obama has become the world’s master of ceremonies” – by David J. Rothkopf of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace:

Over the past two decades…presidents have carved out their own approaches. Buoyed by the Cold War victory and an economic boom, Bill Clinton eventually positioned himself as a sort of “President of the World,” using the nation’s uncontested superpower status to seek common ground and advance common goals. After Sept. 11, 2001, George W. Bush became “the decider,” the unilateralist, with-us-or-against-us president.

Now the world is witnessing an American president who appears less inclined or less able to assert his country — or himself — as the dominant player in global affairs. He seems more comfortable with the bully pulpit than the “big stick,” more at ease working within coalitions or even letting other nations take the lead where Washington once would have stood front and center.

So as war heats up in Libya in coming days – and as the U.S. plays a supporting role – the futures of both Gaddafi and Obama hang in the balance.

Related Topics: libya, National Security
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  • Ivy_B

    I was awake most of the night with a cough and several reporters on the BBC thought that Obama was handling things just right for us.

    Of course I realize that doesn’t compare with the impartiality of the Financial Times and the WaPo op-ed page, but…

  • Ivy_B

    Update from al-Jazeera -

    French war planes destroy 4 Libyan tanks in air strikes south west of Benghazi, Al Jazeera television reports.

  • lreed580

    This article failed to address what the president has said with re: to NOT wanting to be seen as taking the lead given our presence in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    I applaud the fact that the president sees the value in working with coalitions rather than the need to be the dominant player in global affairs. My guess is that other leaders around the globe appreciate that approach as well.

    The overly dramatic final statement by the author…….”the future of Obama hangs in the balance”……really?! That’s an absurd assessment.

  • afguy

    Sounds like this is more than a simple “no-fly” zone… unless, of course, the tanks fired on the aircraft and they are authorized to defend themselves.
    .
    But… there are always ways to “tempt” someone to take a shot.

  • afguy

    Apparently, getting a U.S. military member killed in this particular operation will doom Obama’s reelection chances because we aren’t running the show as in the past.
    .
    If, however, WE are the ones in charge of everything, then the casualties don’t matter quire so much… somehow.

  • paulejb

    There is a certain amount of pleasure in the thought, that for the first time in a long time, that Uncle Sam will be holding others’ coats. But I doubt that we will escape blame if things go sideways in Libya.

  • paulejb

    Ivy_B@2,
    .
    Sounds more like a no-drive zone. Is that what we signed on for?

  • paulejb

    afguy@3.1,
    .
    Normally Americans rally behind the President in the event of a foreign crisis, but in the case of Barack the Reluctant, they might not have much patience. If they believe that he is just phoning it in between golf outings, they will not accept US casualties.

  • apr2563

    lreed580: Agreed. Hyperbole that is supported by nothing.
    .
    And paulejb give up the golfing shtick. It has become monotonous.

    Here are some other presidential hobbies:
    .
    Skinny dipping in the Potomac
    Riding mechanical horses
    Bowling
    Painting
    Horse shoes
    Jogging
    Golf
    Bike riding
    Crosswords
    Stamp collecting
    Sailing
    Piano playing
    Horse back riding
    .
    Tell me paulejb, which President enjoyed which hobby. Then tell me paulejb how much time was spent of their hobbies. Then tell me which party they belonged to. Then tell me who cares?
    .

  • allthingsinaname

    “So as war heats up in Libya in coming days – and as the U.S. plays a supporting role – the futures of both Gaddafi and Obama hang in the balance.”
    .
    Oh? I thought it was Iraq, Afghanistan, Health Care Reform, The recession, Jobs, the deficit, death panels, Black Panther Party, SS, DADT, Gay Marriage, Sarah Palin, John McCain, Donald Trump, The Village, Three Blind Mice, Donald Duck, and Mickey Mouse!

  • paulejb

    The US strikes. We are at war again.

    50 – 100 cruise missiles launched at Libyan air defenses at 2:00 p.m EST.

  • shepherdwong

    This diplomatic dilletantism could cause problems for the President.
    .
    If you mean the problem of right-wing sociopaths piling on the President for any reason they can dream up and getting legacy-media “journalists” and pundits to dutifully relay their treason, why should this issue be any different? After all, before this country’s recent decent into extreme right-wing radicalism (and considering our post 9-11 track record) this might be thought of as sort of credit-worthy:

    He seems more comfortable with the bully pulpit than the “big stick,” more at ease working within coalitions or even letting other nations take the lead where Washington once would have stood front and center.

    What is the “real cost” to not having US aircraft fight and have “control” (as if) of the air campaign in Libyia?

  • paulejb

    allthings…@6,
    .
    Odd, isn’t it. With all that on his plate, Barack the Reluctant’s fate is now tied in with that of Muammar Gaddafi’s. Who would have thought it?

  • allthingsinaname

    Good Grief! Your politics are in the way of your sanity.

  • paulejb

    shepherdwong@8,
    .
    If I only had a nickel for each time our friend wong used the words treason or traitor in a post I could pay down the national debt myself.
    .
    Is there no role for the US Congress or the Constitution of the United States in Barack the Reluctant’s latest excellent adventure?

  • allthingsinaname

    He did promise Military action if Gaddafi didn’t back down

  • allthingsinaname

    His words are harsh, but if you lay them bare, they are true.

  • paulejb

    allthings…@6.2,
    .
    What has politics to do with it? I was commenting on the irony of the situation. Will Muammar Gaddafi be hung around Obama’s neck as Osama bin Laden was hung around Bush’s.
    .
    Ralph Waldo Emerson warned; “If you shoot at a king you must kill him.” There is no happy ending if Gaddafi survives in power.

  • allthingsinaname

    I might add Paule that you seem almost hopeful that things fail.

  • allthingsinaname

    It is what you wish for.

  • paulejb

    allthings…@8.2,
    .
    Only in liberal la la land would they be true. Wong’s “truths” emanate from the fever swamps inhabited by the crazy left.

  • paulejb

    allthings…@8.3,
    .
    I would feel more confident if Barack the Reluctant would show a little more enthusiasm for the mission. It seems that he is going out of his way to limit the use of the full power of the US military.
    .
    As Emerson said if you are going to shoot the king, kill the king.

  • paulejb

    allthings…@6.4,
    .
    What I wish for is a dose of reality to be administered. There seems to be very little in the corridors of power of the world.
    .
    May I remind you all of the law of unintended consequences.

  • allthingsinaname

    No Paule, you have only your political interests at heart, not that of America, Libyans, or the Military. You would take whatever view or action that Obama did not take. That is very clear.

  • perrywhite1

    I’m entirely pleased with how this is shaking out. Despite the right-wing trolls’ Obama Derangement Syndrome, in which everything he does or doesn’t do must be instantly criticized as The End of Civilization As We Know It, this president has proceeded thoughtfully and deliberately to the best possible outcome.
    .
    I’m virtually certain that the “no fly zone” is more a “no drive zone,” which will blunt the Gadhafi regime’s greatest military assets (ground forces). I don’t consider this mission creep, as it was strongly implied in Obama’s speech that this was our intent, and he also broad-brushed the limits of our involvement (no ground troops).

    IOW, it’s almost certain that the ultimate goal is regime change of a Middle Eastern tyrant (a goal the right cheered when there was a Republican president), and that simply cannot be said aloud, as it will force Gadhafi in a corner to where he has no choice but to fight to the death. But he will amost certainly go no matter what, and whatever government comes next in Libya will certainly be more rational, if nothing else.
    Best of all, we will achieve this with the approval of the U.N. and the Arab League, shielding us from the anti-Muslim and neocolonialism charges that arose over Iraq and Afghanistan.
    .
    Obama himself is largely shielded himself politically, which renders Mr. Thompson’s remarks about Obama’s future hanging in the balance as hyperbole at best. (Where IS this liberal media I keep hearing about? It certainly had little to say about Bush’s foreign policy, but tsk-tsks Obama every time he rolls out of bed.) This is an intelligent and practical approach to foreign policy that we haven’t seen in a long while.
    .
    So I see very little downside to the operation for the U.S., given Obama’s careful and considered positioning. And what a relief that is, after eight years of a cowboy president practically frothing at the bit to leap before looking, smearing our reputation abroad and involving us in no-win scenarios that we are STILL finding our way out of.

  • allthingsinaname

    I have had my say about you Paule in two threads, I stand by those statements.

  • gysgt213

    “So as war heats up in Libya in coming days – and as the U.S. plays a supporting role – the futures of both Gaddafi and Obama hang in the balance.”
    .
    Maybe it would be better to ask what success will look like.

  • http://striculist.wordpress.com striculist

    Well ! Obama was the Nobel peace prize winner for 2009,but Sarcozy has not yet got it! This is why U.S. In The Back Seat !

  • Paul-no not that one

    CBS News right now. Russ Mitchell : “A major attack *led* by the US is underway”.
    .
    Domestically BHO owns this.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    I find it absolutely astounding that the one author who writes the most often about the bloat associated with our military budget should suddenly be so concerned that the US is allowing other countries an opportunity to contribute to the 3rd front in the ME. I don’t remember any of this hand-wringing when Bush Sr. assembled a coalition to drive Saddam out of Kuwait.

    The fact that our ‘preeminence’ is precisely WHY we’re going broke while everybody grows their economy under our umbrella seems to not matter a whit within the Village.

  • GivenUp

    I agree, i see lots of upside and very little downside to letting others take the lead on this, might remind the rest of the world that they can work with America and not for America and make our job elsewhere a little easier.

  • GivenUp

    There seems to be far too few who realize that there is no way to both maintain the current level of US global hegemony and simultaneously spend less on defense, before we can start saving money we need to redefine what we are trying to do in the world.

  • allthingsinaname

    Domestically the President owns any act of war.

  • paulejb

    apr2563@3.3,
    .
    It is all Jimmy Carter’s fault. In 1980 he hid in the White House to avoid having to deal with the challenge from Ted Kennedy. He used as his excuse the Tehran Hostage Crisis. That backfired as it gave the impression that the President of the United States could be manipulated by insane, pipsqueak Mullahs.
    .
    Subsequent presidents have taken to adopting a business as usual attitude in a crisis so as not to seem to be prisoners of fate.
    .
    In the case of Barack the Reluctant. He has taken this a step further. He is so detached that it seems that nothing holds any interest for him except the perks of office. And maybe March Madness.

  • allthingsinaname

    Or the fact that after nearly 10 years and two wars the Volunteer Army is exhausted. Does he propose a draft?

  • liberalmeltdown

    Paul @6.3, you are absolutely right that there will not be a happy ending if Gaddafi is left in power. We left him in power, once, twice? Leaving Saddam in power didn’t work out so great either, despite the wishful thinking of the left and our coalition in Gulf War I.

  • paulejb

    allthings…@6.6,
    .
    Well, that’s certainly a conservation ender. Is that your version of “It’s my ball and I’m going home,” allthings?

  • Paul-no not that one

    As the President should.
    .
    That’s why the premise of this post is so nonsensical to me.

  • freeinpa

    “reporters on the BBC thought that Obama was handling things just right for us”
    .
    Well isn’t that special!! We now have our foreign policy approved by the BBC. Perfect.
    .
    One has to wonder though what the BBC, WaPo and the looney left here would say if GWB would have flown off with his family for another round of being the First Tourist while putting our military in harm’s way?

  • allthingsinaname

    “Well, that’s certainly a conservation ender.”

    .
    It was meant to be, take it any way you like.

  • paulejb

    allthings…@8.6,
    .
    My political interests? What do they have to do with intervention in Libya?
    .
    Exactly how do you see all this coming out, allthings?

  • shepherdwong

    If I only had a nickel for each time our friend wong used the words treason or traitor in a post I could pay down the national debt myself.
    .
    Same for every slanderous lie told by Republicans about the president, to gin up political opposition in service of the interests of multi-national financial entities, most often starkly against the policy interests of the nation. It may be far too shrill for the Village but the conscious betrayal of the national interest by “conservatives” elected to represent them and right-wing media dedicated to misinforming the public, is the absolute truth of it.

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    So odd that meltdown considers Colin Powell and GHWB part of “the left”. Which part of disarming Sadaam didn’t work out? The part where he was able to develop imaginary WMD’s?

  • shepherdwong

    Perhaps the author can give us some insight into who’s really planning and coordination the campaign, rather than who’s markings are on the planes, since we already know who’s been in the driver’s seat so far.

  • paulejb

    perrywhite1@9,
    .
    So, where do you see the US Congress and the Constitution of the United States in all this, Perry? Are we to stir ourselves to action every time the UN beckons with no regard for Congress or the law of the land? Who picks up the tab for all this global adventurism? Is there some do-gooder fund stashed away in a Swiss vault?

  • Paul-no not that one

    That would be helpful Shep.

  • paulejb

    Paul-no…@11,
    .
    Last I looked, the power to declare war remains with the Congress. Bush went to Congress to get the authority to use force in Iraq.

  • paulejb

    allthings @6.9,
    .
    You could have just said “uncle,” allthings.

  • Paul-no not that one

    Shep, the other thing is that the author-who I have respect for-does seem to be locked in enough to answer your question.

  • allthingsinaname

    I would feel more confident if Barack the Reluctant would show a little more enthusiasm for the mission. It seems that he is going out of his way to limit the use of the full power of the US military.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/03/19/the-balloon-goes-up-in-libya-with-u-s-in-the-back-seat/#ixzz1H5Kv2AWr
    .
    Last I looked, the power to declare war remains with the Congress. Bush went to Congress to get the authority to use force in Iraq.

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/03/19/the-balloon-goes-up-in-libya-with-u-s-in-the-back-seat/#ixzz1H5L37DeR
    .
    My political interests? What do they have to do with intervention in Libya?

    Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2011/03/19/the-balloon-goes-up-in-libya-with-u-s-in-the-back-seat/#ixzz1H5LDqNK1

  • paulejb

    shepherdwong@8.8,
    .
    Wow! A comment from wong without one use of the words traitor or treason. You aren’t going mellow on me, are you, wong?

  • paulejb

    striculist@10,
    .
    Does he have to return his Peace Prize?

  • paulejb

    allthings…@13,
    .
    Was there a point here somewhere, allthings? I do appreciate that you are advertising my comments but I thought that you disagreed with them?

  • Paul-no not that one

    “over 110 Tomahawk cruise missiles fired from both U.S. and British ships and submarines”
    .
    “Unit Cost: Approximately $569,000 (FY99 $).”
    .
    http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=1300&ct=2
    .
    Of course that was FY99, I’m sure they are much cheaper now. Ahem.

  • paulejb
  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    Volume discounts and all. Economy of scale don’cha know!

  • Paul-no not that one

    PD-Interesting how that economic theory works with the public, say with HDTVs, but not with military spending.

  • liberalmeltdown

    PD, how about the part where Saddam gassed and killed thousands of Kurds, men, women and children. How about the part where his sons and his police tortured and killed freely. How about the part where they fed people into wood chippers. And then there is the fact, despite you illusions that every country, including our coalition believed the Saddam had WMD including the Democrats in the Congress. You don’t get to rewrite history from your own ideology. But nice try.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Here is Obama as sumarized in the Swampland post Why Are We Going to War with Libya?
    .
    He said Gaddafi was suppressing his people and that “left unchecked, we have every reason to believe that Gaddhafi would commit atrocities against his people. Many thousands could die. A humanitarian crisis would ensue. The entire region could be destabilized, endangering many of our allies and partners. The calls of the Libyan people for help would go unanswered. The democratic values that we stand for would be overrun. Moreover, the words of the international community would be rendered hollow.”
    .

  • liberalmeltdown

    Here are those very same statements about Iraq made by George Bush to the UN 2002:
    .
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/12/national/main521781.shtml
    .

    We created a United Nations Security Council, so that — unlike the League of Nations — our deliberations would be more than talk, and our resolutions would be more than wishes. After generations of deceitful dictators, broken treaties and squandered lives, we dedicate ourselves to standards of human dignity shared by all, and to a system of security defended by all.
    .
    Today, these standards, and this security, are challenged.
    .
    In 1991, Security Council Resolution 688 demanded that the Iraqi regime cease at once the repression of its own people, including the systematic repression of minorities — which, the Council said, “threaten(ed) international peace and security in the region.”
    .
    This demand goes ignored. Last year, the U.N. Commission on Human rights found that Iraq continues to commit “extremely grave violations” of human rights and that the regime’s repression is “all pervasive.” Tens of thousands of political opponents and ordinary citizens have been subjected to arbitrary arrest and imprisonment, summary execution, and torture by beating, burning, electric shock, starvation, mutilation, and rape. Wives are tortured in front of their husbands; children in the presence of their parents — all of these horrors concealed from the world by the apparatus of a totalitarian state.
    .
    .
    Obama voted no on Iraq, but now that it he is not just a two bit Senator who major claim to fame was voting present, he has said EXACTLY what Bush said needed to be done in Iraq. Obama, of course doesn’t have the conviction to remove Gaddafi, unless the UN tells him to.

  • paulejb

    Paul-no…@14,
    .
    Fired at what?

  • http://phd9.blogspot.com Paul Dirks

    You may recall that when we were amassing troops in Kuwait for the Iraq invasion, Saddam was busy encouraging civilians to arm themselves. While debating the no-flly zone in Libya, Gaddafi was busy lobbing shells into one of his own cities. But I guess if you say so, the situations other than that are just like each other.

  • paulejb

    liberalmeltdown@16 & 16.1,
    .
    “What’s past is prologue.”
    .
    Indeed!

  • nflfoghorn

    Neocons don’t take weekends off I gather.

  • paulejb

    Paul Dirks@16.2,
    .
    The mass graves discovered after the invasion pretty well bear out Saddam’s proclivity for mass murder.

  • paulejb

    Paul-no…@14.2,
    .
    We do not make HDTVs here in the US, but we do make damn fine Cruise Missiles.

  • nflfoghorn

    You don’t??
    .
    We DO get to define it, however. Especially when we discover that the cause to go to war was a $#!t sandwich wrapped around two steaming buns of lies.

  • allthingsinaname

    As I recall it At the end of Gulf War I Iraq used gas on ‘it’s own people who took advantage of the defeat of Iraq, rightfully expecting the US aid, to revolt against the leadership. Sadly the US did not respond.
    .
    Some ten years later the US decides that Saddam has to go and gins up WMD as the primary purpose. The suffering of the people of course, no longer in revolt, ads icing to the cake.
    .
    Today we have a revolution in Lybia and Gaddafi at war with his own people. Yep just the same at the end of Gulf War I

  • nflfoghorn

    You conveniently did not mention that one prez used 9/11 as an excuse to invade…

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Yep just the same at the end of Gulf War I”
    .
    Is there any false premise that can’t be ignored?
    .
    Maybe ignoring is a bad idea but honestly so much silliness gets addressed and I can’t figure out why.

  • afguy

    What has politics to do with it? I was commenting on the irony of the situation.
    .
    Yep, perfectly logical…
    .
    paulie’s claims to apolitical commentary alternated with his thoughts about “Obama the Reluctant”.
    .
    You know, paulie, you keep doing that and your nose will grow…

  • nflfoghorn

    “…[T]he U.S. will hang back…: Obama could end up in real trouble, politically – perhaps mortally — if any U.S. military personnel gets killed or captured in the Libyan operation”
    .
    You’re comparing him to Tony Blair??

  • Paul-no not that one

    That is an outstanding observation.

  • nflfoghorn

    No results yet on the body part he wishes would grow… ;)

  • allthingsinaname

    “Is there any false premise that can’t be ignored?”
    .
    I would say yes none them can be ignored. Of course it depends on what you are for, if you are for or against the false premise.
    .
    I hope I have that right.

  • freeinpa

    Correcting the ill-informed, the mis-informed and the plain stupid is a full time job on this site

  • nflfoghorn

    I’m just sayin’, PNNTO. When the British people discovered The W Lied! Factor, it weighed on Blair. Also, the current “coalition of the willing” is much stronger than it was in 2002-03. The cause was much more just and clear-cut.

  • Paul-no not that one

    I understand but that sure strikes me as letting the silly ones set the debate.
    .
    I have been wrong before.

  • nflfoghorn

    “Operation Odyssey Dawn”
    .
    How ’bout Operation No More Stupid Operation Names?

  • nabi18
  • Paul-no not that one

    “(T)he current “coalition of the willing” is much stronger than it was in 2002-03. The cause was much more just and clear-cut.”
    .
    Can you amplify that? The “is” in the first sentence means now the “was” in the second sentence means then?

  • nflfoghorn

    “Russia says it regrets coalition strikes against…Libya, urges end to violence”
    .
    Russia = New France?

  • allthingsinaname

    Well I thought meltdoiwn was pretty slick, just wanted to make a distinction between Gulf War I and Gulf War II and Lybia, closer to Gulf War I, I thought.
    .
    That is if we must go to war to liberate a people, we ought to at least do it when they are trying to liberate themselves.

  • nflfoghorn

    You are correct, sir. That’s the way I meant it ;)

  • nflfoghorn

    At least most of the world is (save Russia and probably China). The Arab world is solidly with today’s coalition.

  • afguy

    Don’t forget, paulie – we make GREAT tear gas canisters too.
    ,
    The Egypt uprising was a marketing and PR bonanza for the “Made in the USA” label on those that were on display.
    .
    I know it made ME proud to see that as our “face” during the revolts as they were being televised.

  • nflfoghorn

    [soft drink spits out at computer]

  • perrywhite1

    I’d say Russia = Russia. It’s always looked out for its own interests.
    .
    In this case, it wanted Gadhafi gone but without a broader precedent that could redound on them (See: Chechnya), so it abstained. That abstention also gives them plausible deniability vis-a-vis greenlighting the current operation, so now it will pivot and try to curry favor with Third World nations by decrying the bullies of the West. Just like they did as the Soviet Union during the Cold War.
    .
    Entirely predictable, and I doubt anyone — especially the Arab states — believes it.

  • nflfoghorn

    If every president had to worry about the political consequences of their war actions, we’d be in even more trouble than we currently are.
    The main thing a president has to fear is whether he (or she) is right by the decisions that are made.

  • Paul-no not that one

    I understand.
    .
    I just don’t think LM’s “slickness” fools anyone who doesn’t want to be fooled.
    .
    Please don’t take this as a “Don’t feed the trolls” complaint, I was just curious why anyone would spend the time.

  • http://spradotimes.wordpress.com sporadotimes

    He is ready to act after country was already subjected to civil war and burned to the ground…after he implemented via United Nations prohibition of air space usage allowing use exclusively to Gaddafi’s air attacks and destruction of rebel army while at the same time prohibiting assistance from already liberated neighboring countries..and why !? Because rebel army didn’t tolerate Jewmerican corruption and therefore rebels needed to be destroyed to extend when those will seat at negotiation table with Jewmerica. LIBERATORS WILL ENSLAVE REBELS BY PUSHING FORWARD GREAT ISRAEL’S AGENDA AND OWN OIL $$

    DICTATOR OBAMA = STALIN = BUSH — USA = USSR….LEARN WHO, WHY, AND HOW RUINED YOU…FROM 911 TO AUSTRALIAN FLOODS – WHITE AMERICAN REFUGEES — ARIZONA SHOOTING – WIKILEAKS is CIA — ESKIMO SARAH PALIN’S “BRIDGE TO NOWHERE” — LEARN ABOUT REAL HUMAN FLASH EATING MACHINE OR SO CALLED ECONOMY — BREAST FEEDING INSANITY — CIVIL RIOTS IN ARAB COUNTRIES — NEWS/MEDIA or simply BIG FAT WORLD OF LIES !!??? — NEW WORLD ORDER POLITICAL PARTIES(how, who, why or they are not there for you, but instead to seal your faith for their parliament pay$$$ scale !!!! ) http://avsecbostjan.wordpress.com/ or http://avsecbostjan.blogspot.com

  • allthingsinaname

    For the most part you are correct, for those that post here. I suspect that there are those who do not post, as a rule, who may appreciate another take.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “If every president had to worry about the political consequences of their war actions, we’d be in even more trouble than we currently are”
    .
    What is the old saw? “War is politics by other means”?
    .
    Of course wars have political, by which I think we are saying electoral, consequences. They should. They must.
    .
    The costs, both human and capital, are enormous.
    .
    How would concern about the electorate be a bad thing?

  • Paul-no not that one

    “I suspect that there are those who do not post, as a rule, who may appreciate another take.”
    .
    That’s a fair point. Thanks, I was thinking a bit Swampland-centric.

  • freeinpa

    Truth is always a shock to the left

  • freeinpa

    And he hasn’t used corporate dogs and capitalists pigs yet either. But the night is young

  • freeinpa

    “The fact that our ‘preeminence’ is precisely WHY we’re going broke”
    .
    Yes because we spend taxpayer money on nothing else but defense or at least that’s the case if you listen to liberals. But then again no one takes liberals seriously about things especially defense.

  • http://spradotimes.wordpress.com sporadotimes

    DICTATOR OBAMA = STALIN = BUSH — USA = USSR….LEARN WHO, WHY, AND HOW RUINED YOU…FROM 911 TO AUSTRALIAN FLOODS – WHITE AMERICAN REFUGEES — ARIZONA SHOOTING – WIKILEAKS is CIA — ESKIMO SARAH PALIN’S “BRIDGE TO NOWHERE” — LEARN ABOUT REAL HUMAN FLASH EATING MACHINE — BREAST FEEDING INSANITY — CIVIL RIOTS IN ARAB COUNTRIES — NEWS/MEDIA or simply BIG FAT WORLD OF LIES !!??? — NEW WORLD ORDER POLITICAL PARTIES(how, who, why or they are not there for you, but instead to seal your faith for their parliament pay$$$ scale !!!! ) http://avsecbostjan.wordpress.com/ or http://avsecbostjan.blogspot.com

    WELL, ALL THIS REGIMES HAVE ONE THING IN-COMMON OR TRAITOR-SHIPS AGAINST FOUNDING NATIONS AND IN THEIR OWN COUNTRIES(PARASITIC DICTATORSHIPS – COMPARE THIS TO DICTATOR OBAMA ABOVE)

    He is ready to act after country was already subjected to civil war and burned to the ground…after he implemented via United Nations prohibition of air space usage allowing use exclusively to Gaddafi’s air attacks and destruction of rebel army while at the same time prohibiting assistance from already liberated neighboring countries..and why !? Because rebel army didn’t tolerate Jewmerican corruption and therefore rebels needed to be destroyed to extend when those will seat at negotiation table with Jewmerica. LIBERATORS WILL ENSLAVE REBELS BY PUSHING FORWARD GREAT ISRAEL’S AGENDA AND OWN OIL $$

  • Matt

    Whether “welcomed” by the Muslim world or not, it is incredibly risky and a poor decision for the United States to be involved in three separate offensive military operations at one time. Oil is the only reason we are in Libya. Plenty of innocents are dying in Cote d’Ivoire and Congo, yet no talk of US involvement in those awful conflicts…
    http://www.sunstateactivist.org

  • shepherdwong

    Awfully nice of those French pilots to agree to be painted up with Libyan SAM radar so we could blow up their installations from a safe distance with our cruise missiles. Freedom Fries, anyone?

  • waynebernard

    It’s interesting to see that the United Nations is, once again, being very selective about the despots that they attack. Libya is an oil-producing nation and North Korea is not so Kim Jong-il gets a pass and Muammar Qaddafi does not despite the fact that both nations rank very poorly on human rights issues.

    Here’s a look at how much oil Libya produces and how that production is critical to Europe:

    http://viableopposition.blogspot.com/2011/02/muammars-oil-libyas-contribution-to.html

    Apparently, the black stuff makes all the difference.

  • afguy

    Thanks to the wonders of modern technology, we have their air defense system mapped out (and the various components identified) quite thoroughly.
    .
    With mobile sites, you don’t know where they are so you have to get them to turn on and look at you. That’s where the anti-radiation missiles come in.
    .
    In this case, however, we know where all the parts are. Give a few cruise missiles each a GPS coordinate to hit and, shortly, their AD system is blind as a bat.
    .
    We’ve apparently gone well beyond that, however. This ain’t just your daddy’s “no-fly zone” any more.
    .
    Looks like they’re trying to level the playing field a bit. If they make the tank and artilliery units go into hiding and avoid the open roads for a while, it will help the rebels.

  • afguy

    See 26. That was supposed to be a reply here.

  • afguy

    That reminds me… anyone check out General Dynamics and Dow Chemical stocks since this started? Bet they’re up.
    .
    Oh, right, markets closed over the weekend… we’ll have to wait until Monday to see the “peace dividend” for all of this.

  • nflfoghorn

    Then this would be a case of “stupid is as stupid does,” wouldn’t it, Freep?

  • nflfoghorn

    Politics should be a consideration, but a prez shouldn’t use it as justification either for or against what he/she is trying to accomplish. I understand that’s what W did as well; he was sincerely WRONG because he lied, not because he determined in his heart (and counseled with his advisers) that going to war was the best option.

  • nflfoghorn

    Closed-captioned for the shift-key impaired brought to you by trolls!

  • paulejb

    afguy@6.14,
    .
    Barack the Reluctant has dashed of to Brazil while the bombs are dropping and missiles are flying. Odd that he should go walkabout as the excrement connects with the rotary device.

  • freeinpa

    “Then this would be a case of “stupid is as stupid does,” wouldn’t it, Freep?”
    .
    If you are equating Obama to Forest Gump I would say yes except Forest Gump actually held a job in his life

  • tanboontee

    Odyssey Dawn? A new military pilgrimage?

    The West has manipulated yet another new war game, this time in Libya.

    Peace laureate Obama says the US cannot stand by idly and no ground troops will take part. Has the West sat down to talk or exhausted all possible options before taking military actions? With limitless missiles and drones available for bombings, is there a need for foot soldiers?

    China and Russia stay out of the picture. They have better things to do than going into war to promote sickening arm sales to North Africa and Mideast. (vzc1943)

  • paulejb

    freeinpa@8.10,
    .
    I thought was that Capitalist Running Dogs.

  • paulejb

    afguy@14.5,
    .
    Another example of American innovation. In the old days, they would just have shot the demonstrators.

  • mjkoch

    At long last the world is standing up to an Arab dictator, a brutal, oppressive psychopath who has funded terrorism around the world and who has been responsible for the deaths of untold thousands. The “Free” world cannot remain free if it remains silent and blind to brutality, genocide, and murderous thugs like Ghadaffi. Here’s hoping a cruise missile finds its way to Ghadaffi’s tent soon.

  • paulejb

    I am still wondering why Russia and China did not veto this in the Security Council? What is there game?
    .
    The last time something like this happened was in 1950 when the Soviet Union was boycotting the UN and it voted to intervene in Korea.

  • liberalmeltdown

    The left gins up history: Nobody intentionally lied about WMD. The left lies about that everyday. To imagine that every intelligence network and the UN lied about WMD is beyond ridiculous. Yet, the left tries to make that turkey fly. Keep tossing it up, but it lands with a thud at the feet of anybody with half a brain.
    .
    The two statements by Bush and Obama are identical in content. The real major difference is: Bush as a leader made the UN stand up and make its words and resolutions mean what they threatened. Obama as the indecisive opportunist, is having the UN force him into action.

  • nflfoghorn

    Whether he went to your corner drug store or to the South Pole, he’s still the president. You don’t think he can lead two/three wars if he happens to be in Sao Paulo? If he were in DC you’d complain about him golfing anyway.

  • liberalmeltdown

    Agreed, Gaddafi should have been taken out long ago. We knew he killed Americans. Leaving him in power was a mistake. Leaving Saddam in power was also a mistake. You don’t wound a grizzly bear and then pitch your tent, go to sleep, and hope for the best.

  • foreclose101

    Obama is hiding from Japan’s radioactive plume that reached us here in California last night about 8pm during a rain storm that is continuing at 8pm+ tonight… Brazil, about as far away as you can get… Clinton is enjoying Paris…
    Fun for all as Q get bombed…

  • foreclose101

    Russia still is not trusted by EU or US or BE as a war partner…

  • apr2563

    I am in California. What’s the trouble? You glowing in the dark? I’m not. As for the rain storm, it is March. Rain is not uncommon. What is your point?
    Also, Clinton is at a meeting with the coalition members. Obama is having a long planned trade meeting. Again, what is your point?

  • http://forcestruth.wordpress.com forcestruth

    法兰西哟 你若渡过利古利亚海
    你会发现 在大海与群岛之间
    你已被团团包围
    比伊斯兰敌人更可怕的
    是亚得里亚海
    你将撕咬战马尸骨

  • phpprakash

    I am not supporter of Gaddafi, but I am worrying about result after war. America and its Allies must understand and learn something from Ira

  • phpprakash

    I am not supporter of Gaddafi, but I am worrying about result after war. America and its Allies must understand and learn something from Iraq and Afghanistan and present economic system? japan cannot help because of his own condition, American and other countries economy is in falling. I think new rescission can start due to this war. God Bless America And its friend ….

  • Art Pepper

    diplomatic dilletantism

    Wait, so the new rule is that if the United States joins a coalition, it must be in charge? Because our track record on military interventions is so fantastic?

  • Art Pepper

    Wait, I forgot … the only really important issue in the world is whether Americans can still maintain the size of our collective national Ego. I mean, that’s the point of having wars, right?

  • http://forcestruth.wordpress.com forcestruth

    首先那么多人装傻,你觉得为了别人的民主,法国佬会付出自己的巨大代价去争取吗,,卢旺达屠杀百万人怎不见有人去轰炸,要是捞不到好处请我我都不来。卡扎菲先让人觉得不对,可后来呢这些冷血动物会去拯救真理(付出自己的代价去)世界上谁信,中国人被八国联军欺负的有了奴性于是大呼 八国联军拯救世界来啦,还有人说八国联军将真理带到世界每个角落,那么他们最好将真理带到你家 ,轰你家的稀巴烂,你们这些卖国贼,不知道佩林已将中国和利比亚并提,哪天打来了只能当HANJIAN,日本不遭地震你知道他有那么多核武器吗,你还在做天朝大梦呢

  • http://liemthogowa.wordpress.com liemthogowa

    It will be another Somalia or Irak in a few week later.

  • Paul-no not that one

    “Arab dictator”
    .
    I see you and LM have strong well thought out feelings.

  • wagedronenumber9

    So as war heats up in Libya in coming days – and as the U.S. plays a supporting role – the futures of both Gaddafi and Obama hang in the balance.

    I guess this is the narrative the villagers are going to push—- that this is the defining moment of the Obama presidency.

    It’s easy to understand why the French want to take the lead in this, there has to a very large North African population in the country, and this is probably well received by it; and since Cameron’s speech about the reason to get involved in the operation mentions the Lockerbie bombing, it’s pretty clear to see that England sees this as the time and place to get rid of Gaddafi. With the rebels now being pushed back, both countries don’t want to miss what they both probably see as a great opportunity to get rid of a trouble spot.

    I fail to see how if Obama doesn’t commit ground troops and only tactically supports the French and English lead efforts how this is a make or break moment for him. I’d argue that France and England are the two countries who should be the lead in doing this.

    But, everyone knows that the right wing noise machine is going play this as Obama as a weak leader story. So, Mark Thompson, why do you lift up and speak through a Right Wing squawk microphone? Is understanding why France and England would want to do this such a hard concept to comprehend?

  • http://realtorpaul.wordpress.com realtorpaul

    “Wa po op ed” ?- english please.

  • http://realtorpaul.wordpress.com realtorpaul

    Here we go again poking our nose where it does not belong. Should we be the worlds keeper?

  • 53_3

    I see freeinpa is his usual no-content self, but aside from that, I’m happy with the way Obama is handling things.
    .
    In the end, we might find that we can get more done with global cooperation than without.

  • 53_3

    French, paulejb, french…

  • rdw56

    Because our track record on military interventions is so fantastic?

    ***************************************

    Yes, it is. We’ve won easily in Afghanistan and Iraq 2x’s, held off the Vietcong for 10 years before losing the political will. That wasn’t a military defeat. One of the greatest pictures of all time is a picture from space of the Korean Penisula where the line is so clear at night with a booming South and desperate North. Could the difference between left wing socialism and right wing capitalism be any clearer? And then before Korea there was WWII, WWI, Spanish-American war etc.

    So the answer is a clear yes but there are other equally solid reasons. We are by far the most experienced and proficient and 90% of the ‘assets’ in place doing the attacking are American. The Brits are quite good as well but simply don’t have as much air power or experience and the French almost none in terms of real live fire.

    There’s also the dicey political issue even Obama understands that Americans don’t like it when our troops are put under the control of ANY other government. If France commanders wish to command then by all means do so. Command French forces. NATO is accepted because it is recognized as an American operation with joint decisions but Americans commanding American forces in operations.

  • http://whendoesthegladstart.blogspot.com caroljwright

    This is early in the game. Obama would have been nailed for going it alone. Obviously a colonial move on the part of the America. Remember the back up help we’ve had during Iraq and Afghanistan? “We” don’t even count that.

    Even though it is obvious from Iraq and Afghanistan that we are NOT there to take over these countries, this attitude about US involvement persists in the Middle East. Or we are part of some Zionist plot.

    This dictator thinks arming his people, that they all support him? It doesn’t take really 112 missiles to create a campaign to rid the world of this guy. It takes one person, perhaps one of his Amazon guards has a real heart and sense of reality…with a gun and close proximity. Take him out and see how many close to him start cheering.

  • Ivy_B

    WaPo is the standard abbreviation for Washington Post and op-ed is the standard abbreviation for the commentary page in newspapers that is opposite the editorial page.
    .

  • rdw56

    Americans can still maintain the size of our collective national Ego

    ***************************************************

    I think you have it all wrong. Driving the national ego are McMansions, 3-car garages, SUVs the size of small houses and of course huge flat screen TVs. We are 5% of the world people producing 25% of global GDP and 75% of it’s innovations. It’s true we did save the free world from socialism in WWI, WWII and the Cold war but for most that’s ancient history.

  • rdw56

    If you think you can rehabilitate France with this kind of effort you are out of your mind. My honest advice is to not even try and just let it happen. The French are not cowards. They are merely obnoxious. Sarkozy has been a breath of fresh air so much so if you asked the average conservative if they’d vote for Sarko to replace Obama we’d do it tomorrow.

    The freedom fries thing was about the treachery of their President and Foreign minister. Chirac was/is a horses ass and not to be trusted. As an ally his treachery made him more dangerous than our enemies.

    In this example had the mission been dangerous they would have done what the Israeli’s have been doing for 3 decades. You send in drones to set off the radar and the jets following take out the ground sites.

    What Obama has done right is to give the appearance of French leadership. It’s not true but it’s a positive image that should promote their own military to the French people and thus value.

  • afguy

    We’ve won easily in Afghanistan and Iraq 2x’s, held off the Vietcong for 10 years before losing the political will.
    .
    And how, pray tell, did we “win” in Afghanistan?
    .
    Could the 50k+ Americn dead and many more injured in Vietnam have had a little to do with what you call a loss of political will, rdw?
    .
    And for what? To keep them from acquiring that horrid label of “Communist”? What was the result of THAT happening?
    .
    Oh, yeah, they became a valued trading partner. Horrible, horrrible fate.
    .
    Oh, yeah, I keep forgetting… you don’t really believe half of the sh!t you write here.
    .
    You just like the reaction you get…

  • rdw56

    well for starters Al Qaeda and the Taliban are not running the show and damn sure are not running terror training camps. They’re not even doing that in Pakistan. Look at where we are now. The most liberal President in US history has endorsed ALL of GWBs policies and then some. Did you ever anticipate drone wolfpacks from Obama?

    As far as Vietnam there’s not enough time to debate the effects of that. My point was that the military performed admirably and the loss was political. Of course this being America that loss was only short term. I love politics for the irony. How cool is it that Nixon’s plan to end the draft by creating a permanently funded professional military had precisely the opposite effect liberals intended? The image of these greybeard professors trying yo mount campus protests of Iraq was quite comical. No draft, no protest. No draft, no army of disgruntled soldiers. No draft, all professional soldiers. Rather than degrade our power it’s been enhanced.

  • afguy

    well for starters Al Qaeda and the Taliban are not running the show and damn sure are not running terror training camps.
    .
    You do recall that we were the Taliban’s “sugar daddies” for a number of years, don’t you – when the Russians were in our shoes?
    .
    Having “won” would seem to imply that we can pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq, wouldn’t it? I wouldn’t think that a couple of hundred thousand troop would be needed after you’ve “won”. At least by any definition of “winning” I’m familiar with.
    .
    Yes, we got our “all-volunteer force”… and we’ve burned them out because there aren’t enough of them to keep fighting all of the wars the “non-draftees” have decided we need to be involved in.
    .
    Either we need more “volunteers” – or fewer wars to send them to. Go ahead and ignore the suicides, marital problems, stress from repeated deployments and PTSD. Keep telling yourself that EVERYONE in the military is happy with the present state of affairs because they “volunteered”.
    .
    By repeating it over and over, you’ve made it clear what the most important part is – there’s no draft. You can continue with the “no-risk” (to you, anyway) cheerleading and celebration of body counts.

  • nflfoghorn

    Bing Translation:
    .
    First of all, so many people play, do you think others democracy, France guy will give great cost to fight for it, Rwanda massacres how can millions of people see someone to bombing, if neither benefits me I could not salvage. Gaddafi first let people think not, can later does these cold-blooded animals will to save truth (pay own of cost to) World Shang who letter, Chinese was eight-power allied forces bully of has has servility so large call eight-power allied forces save world to La, also was said eight-power allied forces will truth with to world each corner, so they best will truth with to you home, detonation you home of xibalan, you these sold traitor, does not know Palin has will China and Libya and to, which days playing to has only Dang HANJIAN, Japan does not was earthquake you know he has so more nuclear weapons did, you also in do heavenly dream does

  • rdw56

    Having “won” would seem to imply that we can pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq, wouldn’t it? I wouldn’t think that a couple of hundred thousand troop would be needed after you’ve “won”. At least by any definition of “winning” I’m familiar with

    ***********************************************

    Really? Well no denying you are a liberal. History’s not exactly a strong point is it? Ever hear of WWII? Germany? Japan? Korea? Italy? We still have bases in all of those places.

  • rdw56

    Yes, we got our “all-volunteer force”… and we’ve burned them out because there aren’t enough of them to keep fighting all of the wars the “non-draftees” have decided we need to be involved in

    ***********************************

    Actually they’re not burned out and Libya is a job for the Air force which has suffered the least of the casualties. Besides, didn’t you say the French were doing all of the heavy lifting?

  • rdw56

    Keep telling yourself that EVERYONE in the military is happy with the present state of affairs because they “volunteered”.

    ******************************************************

    Happy is not the word I’d choose but give the record level of re-enlistments since 2003 I’d say they’re at least content. No one wants to go to war but you can’t join the military and be shocked you might get involved in war. That’s rather the point of a professional army isn’t it?

    Now it is true some join and are shocked ans devastated when the call comes. They’ll say things like, “I never expected this!”. They’re called liberals. Let’s just forget the absurdity of it for a 2nd and assume they really didn’t know the purpose of an army is to fight wars I can promise you they were warned endlessly when they were recruited AND they signed a contract with it all spelled out. It’s not fair to dumb b*stards to call them dumb b*stards.

  • rdw56

    there’s no draft. You can continue with the “no-risk” (to you, anyway) cheerleading and celebration of body counts.

    **************************************************

    Quite true. It’s called democracy. I did serve but that matters not. Obama has no qualms sending men into harms way when he’s never considered putting himself on the line. It’s how we do things. What do you think it was like for the troops to serve under Clinton, an admitted draft dodger, for 8 years? In fact, no problem. Them’s the rules.

  • afguy

    Really? Well no denying you are a liberal. History’s not exactly a strong point is it? Ever hear of WWII? Germany? Japan? Korea? Italy? We still have bases in all of those places.
    .
    To fight WHO, rdw? We still needed to keep the Germans from rising up? To keep the Japanese from taking over the Pacific? They renounced an offensive military presence several decades ago – only have a self-defense force. South Korea and Italy are threats to US? Yeah, right.
    .
    We have bases in those countries as a counterweight to the Soviet Union and its satellites, rdw. Which incidentally, doesn’t exist any longer. Plus China. Maybe YOU need to brush up on your history a little more and compare apples to apples, rather than lecturing others..
    .
    Those bases are still there though. So maybe we still need them, NOT to combat communism any more, but to serve as jumping off points in our role as the “world’s policeman”?
    .
    Because we sure as h*ll don’t occupy those countries for the same reason we’re still in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ostensibly, those two countries still pose a threat to our security. If we’ve “won”, why are THEY still a threat?

  • rdw56

    there’s no draft

    **********************************************************

    I repeat it because it’s such a fascinating thing politically. You probably weren’t there in the 60′s but it’s impossible to over-state how badly things turned out for the anti-war crowd. They didn’t just elect Nixon they did it 2x’s. The end of the draft was intended to end our ability to fight. It had precisely the opposite effect.

    There was a cold war on but the lefties who wanted to end the draft and end war expected the Russians would eventually catchup economically and prove Socialism the better of Capitalism. NIxon ran on law and order and creating a professional army. He wasn’t going to cut military spending rather downsize and invest more per person in the still large forces.

    We are more powerful than we’ve ever been and our technological edge continues to expand. If you have been following the dramatic enhancements of drone technology you know we are on the front edge of a clone army. We expanded our capacity to protect troops and even when they get wounded to get them healthy.

    Besides the incredible professionalism of the troops made possible by the extra investment in their pay and training as well as in technology the end of the draft has robbed the anti-war crowd of what little oxygen they had. If you saw any of the anti-war protests up close you had to laugh. They were zoo’s of liberal special interest groups. If you watched ABC is was funny to see how they tended showed clips from a distance so as not to see the PETA and other signs. Pity for the MSM everyone has a digital camera these days. They control nothing except their shrinking audiences.

    So if you are wondering why we can fight 3 wars at once and still have fewer troops and ships overseas than in 1995 think of the anti-war crowd.

  • rdw56

    If we’ve “won”, why are THEY still a threat

    *****************************************************

    We are in Afghanistan because we didn’t go into Pakistan to clean the terrorist out. Like the Cold War the war against radical islam is going to be long and have many fronts. Liberals aren’t fighting this war but then they didn’t fight the cold war after 1968 either.

    Your claim was that we’ve never had to keep several hundred thousand troops overseas. Well that was a demonstrably dumb thing to say. Aside from the 40′s, 50′s, 60,s, 70;s, 80′s and 90′s you’d be right.

  • rdw56

    counterweight to the Soviet Union and its satellites, rdw. Which incidentally, doesn’t exist any longer. Plus China

    *******************************

    Yes, I know.

    I’m the guy who keeps reminding you of Reagan’s astonishing defeat of socialism. Achieved without firing a shot and over the opposition of liberals.

  • afguy

    Quite true. It’s called democracy. I did serve but that matters not. Obama has no qualms sending men into harms way when he’s never considered putting himself on the line. It’s how we do things. What do you think it was like for the troops to serve under Clinton, an admitted draft dodger, for 8 years? In fact, no problem. Them’s the rules.
    .
    I think the problem is when your “dedicated, all-volunteer” force starts to notice that there’s an inordinate number of similarly-aged individuals cheering like crazy for the fighting to start, who aren’t willing to put themselves in harm’s way for a cause they obviously support. After the 4th or 5th deployment, the “dedication” starts to fray.
    .
    If this was about “volunteering”, why resort to “Stop Gap” to keep those “happy volunteers” in-place? Oh, right… “them’s the rules”, as you so eloquently put it. Under a capitalist system of warfare, it’s your own fault if you don’t read all of the fine print in your contract.
    .
    What happens when you have more wars to fight than you have “dedicated volunteers” to fight them?
    .
    Bury a clause in your credit card contract that, if you miss a payment, you will have been deemed to have “volunteered” for military service in the branch of THEIR choosing?

  • afguy

    I’m the guy who keeps reminding you of Reagan’s astonishing defeat of socialism.
    .
    Yeah, I know… you keep claiming that Reagan did it by his lonesome… as convenient method of changing the subject.
    .
    And we keep telling you that making a speech or two had little to do with it. Look to the leaders of those countries for the credit for making the change. THEY took the risks. Not your sainted B-movie actor.
    .
    However, those countries and alliances are gone. Why are we still there in those countries you named?

  • rdw56

    So maybe we still need them, NOT to combat communism any more, but to serve as jumping off points in our role as the “world’s policeman”?

    ************************************************

    We’ve downsized and closed most of our bases in Western Europe and added a few small facilities in Eastern Europe where relations are much better. Schroeder was a disaster for Germany. Bush removed permanently over 100,000 active duty troops and many support personnel. It costs a lot of money to base troops and it was an economic shock for the region. Many of those troops brought their families over for their tour.

    The reason we have fewer troops stationed overseas now than in 1995 is because we have fewer in Germany, Japan, Korea and elsewhere offsetting those in Iraq and Afghanistan. We will pull out of Iraq on schedule and end the surge in Afghanistan on schedule. The drawdown might not be a fast as Obama had been hinting but Petraeus is absolutely focused on building the Afghan army and as in Iraq they are now serving along side US troops to get experience and savvy.

  • rdw56

    Look to the leaders of those countries for the credit for making the change.

    ************************************

    That’s a liberal attempt to deflect credit from where it belongs. Your problem is Gorby was a bigger putz than Carter. Gorby wasn’t trying to change from socialism he was trying to save socialism and save the USSR. Everything he did FAILED. He wasn’t some new-age commie trying to join the modern world and expand freedom and democracy. He didn’t cut off Castro because Fidel was a commie thug. He could no longer support him.

    BTW: We all know Reagan didn’t do it alone. He stood on the shoulders of those who fought the cold war before him. This of course does not include post-68 liberals. Reagan’s chief adversaries in the 80′s blocking his attempts to defeat socialism were liberals. Senators like Kerry, Dodd, Clinton and others are still furious over what Reagan was able to accomplish in Central and South America and it’s not for nothing Obama is in Brazil and will not go to Columbia nor sign the free trade deal with them.

  • rdw56

    starts to notice that there’s an inordinate number of similarly-aged individuals cheering like crazy for the fighting to start, who aren’t willing to put themselves in harm’s way for a cause they obviously support. After the 4th or 5th deployment, the “dedication” starts to fray.

    **********************************************

    Do you really think they didn’t notice this long ago? The army had record levels of re-enlistments when the Iraqi war was at it’s most intense. Pretty nice bonuses too. That’s how it’s done. You pay for performance. They don’t look to those who choose not to serve. They’re related to some of them. They make their own choices for their own reasons and serve their commanders and the commander-in-chief because that’s how this democracy was designed.

    One of the great moments of the war was after Kerry smeared those who served with a comment to classroom of students, “better study or you’ll end up in Iraq”. It wasn’t an hour later and a picture of a marine unit holding up a sheet, officers included, went viral on the internet. It was a handwritten message, “Jon Carry, kan y halp save us hear in Irak? Or something like that. It was clever and hilarious. Not only a great way to tell him and the elitists to piss off but to call attention to all ignorant pr*cks. As it happens Kerry had been considering another run in 2012. Within a week he became quite bitter at the lack of support from his peers. He learned his ambitions were over. The Marines didn’t get mad. They got even.

  • rdw56

    Look to the leaders of those countries for the credit for making the change. THEY took the risks. Not your sainted B-movie actor.

    ***************************************************

    Whatever risks gorby took were forced on him by Reagan who promised to crush them economically and technologically. They only technology they had they stole from us. Hate to tell you but Reagan was A-List.

    Edmund Morris, his biographer and true blue liberal was never a fan of Reagan but even he tires of the lazy bashing. He’s gotten to the point he chuckles at the morons suggesting Reagan was dumb. His stock reply is something like, “Let me see, he was a successful announcer for major league baseball before he became a successful actor (A list) before he became a very successful union leader before he became a successful Corporate spokesman before he became a successful two-term governor before he became a successful two-term President. How dumb are you compared to him?”

  • rdw56

    What happens when you have more wars to fight than you have “dedicated volunteers” to fight them?

    **************************************

    You hire more dedicated volunteers. One of the cool things about being so technologically advanced and part of a capitalist system is over time the military becomes more productive. For example when I served in the 70′s on a supply ship we had a crew of approximately 240 men who rotated with 4 similar supply ships to keep the med fleet fed. Over time those crews were eventually replaced with civilians because newer ships were far better mechanized and maintained. The Navy was able to transfer just short of 1,000 men on just those 4 ships from support to front line duty.

    As far as the individual soldier technology like body armor keeps them safer and makes them more lethal. One of the tactical advances in Iraq were the application of sniper teams with very advanced rifles with longer range and much higher accuracy. You need fewer soldiers to accomplish the same task. There were dozens of stories of troops getting insurgents trapped in buildings and having a choice between a missile launch from a Jet or drone or copter or tank or mortor. They would choose the cheapest option to destroy the target and all inside.

    One of the key advances allowed by drones is force protection. The camera equipment in a drone is the most advanced in the world. Someone sitting in Colorado controlling a drone had 4 HDTVs to look at while the drone is floating a mile above the patrol. The digital software will alert the control if so much as a cockroach moves near the men and loads the exact coordinates of the controller finds out it’s an insurgent moving onto position for an attack. He just pushes a button and goodbye insurgent.

    One of the reasons some raids into Pakistan have been so successful is the small insurgent team is protected 24/7, can sleep without needing a perimeter watch, and when at the target area can with a PC and laser target as many insurgents are there are missiles For a 5 drone wolfpack that’s 20 buildings. A small team finding a base camp can take it’s time identifying the commander and key personal and take them all out without firing a shot. The special forces team can leave before the party begins or more likely wait, confirm, and then leave under the watchful eye of the drone commanders proving the safest route and then protecting their flanks.

    Now think about that as a matter of productivity. These drones have camera with over 10,000 mega pixels. They have software that can detect the movement of a cockroach and determine friend from foe. They also have infrared for night time and other detection technology also fully automated. These special forces teams are far safer and far more lethal. When they use their laser to spot a target it is precise. Click a button and a missile is armed and locked immediately. They get in and out without being seen.

    Well obviously with such technology you don’t need as many men. Or conversely the same amount of men can do much more. This extends to the entire force not just special forces. There were a great many occasions in Afghanistan and Iraq when a drone protector could have saved many American lives and killed many more of the enemy. Petraeus wants one for each patrol.

    Also note in the 2004/5 timeframe we added a new generation drone with 50% more weight capacity and had reconfigured the missile with a special design that was lighter but just as lethal. They were able to upgrade older drones to carry 4 rather than 2 and the new drones “reaper’ I think with 8 missiles. This is no small thing. A wolfpack of 5 can take out 40 rather than 20 targets. Again, it’s about productivity.

    It’s pretty interesting that liberals don’t go back to Shinseki’s testimony of needing > 300K in the occupation force. At least not in any detail. It’s mentioned but only as a cheap shot. In fact Petraeus ended what was essentially a civil war with 160,000 troops. Shinseki was in fact wrong. It wasn’t the number of troops but how they were used. And not is was after Iraq had been won Petraeus managed to get the Air Force chief of staff fired for blocking the application of drones. Petraeus only had limited access before 2007. The 2nd most dangerous killer after IEDs was snipers. Drones have the ability to identify and locate a rifle shot, load the coordinates and lauch a missile in less than a second. I think the casualty count was near 5,000. It could have been at least 25% less with drones on hand and the kill rate by our side triple.

    The point is the application of technology is happening at a much faster rate. There might be a day we need a draft but it’s very unlikely. Petraeus has already cut the fatality rate in Afghanistan by 50% over 2010 with more troops and a more aggressive footprint. Most of his original target area has been secured and the Afghan army is participating and getting professional grades. They’re holding it and expanding. As in Iraq the locals have confidence and they’re getting more intelligence than anytime previously. They’re far better prepared for spring and if they attack in numbers their losses will be heavy. There are 1,000 more drones in Afghanistan now than two years ago. They don’t know what to expect because this was also the most active winter in Pakistan for taking out insurgents. Obama to his credit two years ago expanding the target range geographically and we’ve been very active. If we know where you sleep we will kill you there.

  • shepherdwong

    I thought was that Capitalist Running Dogs.
    .
    It’s corporatist “conservative”. If you’re going to sell your soul to the devil, you should know its name.

  • afguy

    You probably weren’t there in the 60′s but it’s impossible to over-state how badly things turned out for the anti-war crowd.
    .
    I was there. Joined in 1968. In fact, it turned out so badly for the anti-war crowd that a number of them were shot and killed by National Guard troops during a demonstration at Kent State University.
    .
    Oh, you were talking about “political” reverses…
    .
    Do you really think they didn’t notice this long ago? The army had record levels of re-enlistments when the Iraqi war was at it’s most intense.
    .
    I’m curious… how are the NEW enlistments NOW that the deployments are on their 4th or 5th circuit and the war is approaching its tenth year?
    .
    Suicides? Broken marriages? Rates of diagnosis of PTSD? All still down like in the beginning?
    .
    Before they cancelled “Stop Loss” in 2009, the program affected approx. 145k members. They had to extend the claim period because MOST of that number had separated. For some reason. they apparently didn’t appreciate being told that “them’s the rules” when their enlistments were involuntarily extended and voted with their feet.
    .
    Ingrates.
    .
    How much are you willing to see paid to keep the “all volunteer” force manned? Blackwater/Qe rates? If the enlistments rates drop, are you willing to pay the other “volunteers mercenaries” like Blackwater the market rate?
    .
    I thought we were having to cut social programs because we are “broke”. Does that need to “cut” not extend to payment of private “contractors” premium salaries to fill in the gaps in an “all-volunteer” fighting force?

  • rdw56

    Re-enlistment rates have remained very high as have recruitment rates. As far as involuntary extension that’s been a feature of all military contracts for many, many decades. As far as the social problems related to the stress of war and separation I haven’t seen any stats in a while. The last I was were in the 05/06 timeframe and they made news because the NYTs tried one of their classic scams comparing the suicide rates of soldiers to those of the general population. A rather stupid effort. It’s common knowledge more males commit suicide than female. It’s also common knowledge young males also commit suicide more often than older males. So of course the NYTs ‘study’ showed high suicide rates in the military. Like Dan Rather’s expose this also took about 15 minutes to find the scam. If I remember correctly it was a 4 day series all on the front page. Before it finished their public editors admitted it wasn’t a valid study.

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