Top Marine: Openly gay troops could lead to battlefield deaths

Oh pu-lease.

What distraction? Does he seriously think that in the middle of a fire fight some gay marine is going to turn to one of his fellow marines and say: “Hey gorgeous when this little altercation is over lets head back to camp and have a couple of dirty martinis.”

Lets call his problem exactly what it is, antiquated thinking and homophobia.

This guy needs to be fired.

If any of our soldiers are uncomfortable around gays, no matter how small the number, than that’s it, no gays. It’s that f@@@in’ simple. The fact is the majority, doesn’t want to serve with em, and if there ever was a case for majority rule, this is it.
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The battlefield is a place where even the smallest distraction can get a man killed. This is a no-brainer.

Just so he’s not on the battlefield because he seems severely distracted, if not delusional.

We should ban girlfriends then. How many marines have died day dreaming about their girlfriends. Clearly, sexual interest of any kind is a threat to life. Ban it all.

It must be hell going through life without a clue.

A) It’s the military there is no such thing as majority rule. Seriously think about it. Men we have to go fight the Taliban over in this sector so let’s put it to a vote. Who’s in?

B) Gays serve side-by-side with Marines now in other NATO forces have they caused Marines to die?

C) Gays serve now in the Marines and most line troops have a pretty good idea who they are. Are they responsible for Marine deaths?

Waaaay back in 1948, 63% thought that black troops and white troops should remain separated, while 26% were ok with it. Support for homoAmericans serving in The Military is currently somewhere in the high 70s.
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Y’wanna know how African-Americans REALLY got Truman to sign Exec Order 9981, desegregating The Military?
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During the meeting, A. Philip Randolph told President Truman, “Mr. President, after making several trips around the country, I can tell you that the mood among Negroes of this country is that they will never bear arms again until all forms of bias and discrimination are abolished”
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If Real homoAmericans wanna serve, maybe that’s what its gonna take! Man up homoAmericans!

What’s that line:

“Because… Gays and Lesbians ought to be able to kill brown people too.”

We have to do something about all these heteros in the military. They seem absolutely obsessed with gays.

What a drama queen James Amos is.
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Here’s a list of countries that permit gays to serve.
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Why does Amos think American servicemen and -women are so unprofessional compared to their counterparts in countries like Russia, Israel, Estonia, Denmark, Taiwan, and the UK?

2thirdrocks: Do you think some American troops were uncomfortable when the military was integrated? Do you think some might have found it distracting? Should we not have integrated?

Why doesn’t this guy just come out (pardon the pun) and say it in harmony with McCain; “I HATE QUEERS.” Say it and get it over with. Otherwise he truly insults all the men and women under his command by saying they can’t be trusted to do their jobs because they would be distracted by someone’s sexuality. If i were in a battle situation, I wouldn’t care if my buddy were in full drag or checking my junk (a la TSA) or what, as long as when it came time for him or her to shoot the bad guy he or she did it.
Is this guy a true 4 star moron or is he just greasing the skids to be the next senator from Arizona?

Amos seems to have no faith in the gender security of the troops he commands. Maybe he is channeling his own insecurity.

Why do our troops feel uncomfortable around gays? They almost act like they can’t help the straight sex they had at the drop at a hat while serving along side woman.

Go to most any gay bar and ask who are ex-marine.
The most fighting will be done by those who may question their sexuality. Machismo works by either acting like a women or super male macho. Macho may lead to gay behavior. Does the Corp need a stick to blackmail its’ troops?
Our costal ports have gay enclaves because during WWII the military dropped off gays that got caught at the port loading dockets. This was Americas version of Germany’s Article 175. SHAME ON YOU USA!!!!!!!

Why? Most posters don’t get it as they can’t read between the lines. What’s written between the lines? Firstly, no “openly gay” man is going to make it through “boot camp” let alone be put in a Marine combat unit. That doesn’t mean that gay sex doesn’t take place; no one is asking and no one is telling. What is really in play here is the resistance to allowing effeminate men in uniform. Front/forward area combat troops, mostly in the Marines and Army, are the main pockets of this resistance as Navy and Air Force personnel are in the rear areas and don’t take part in land warfare. The Commandant does NOT want the traditions of the Marines, in all their macho glory, to be confused with this politically correct image of “openly gay” men in Marine uniforms. Right. Semper fi. DADT works, it doesn’t need fixing. If an effeminate man chooses to serve, he needs to sublimate the urge to “be who he really is”. The military is about conformity and MILITARY bearing In defense of changing policy short of changing DADT, the gay “witch hunts” should cease.

Because we’re Americans who live in a land of violence, guns, alcohol, and John Wayne. Other countries have different cultural currents. Regarding your list, notice that Italy, Spain, Portugal and France are not on it. DADT works fine for us because of our history and traditions.

I don’t think an “openly gay” man could make it through the Marine’s boot camp.

Actually Jazz gays are allowed to serve in the military of France, Italy and Spain (if you read the list it mentions all three of those countries,heck Spain allows transgendered to serve though the site does say that the Italians and to some extent the French still have a strong anti gay cultures within the military) and although not on the list they can serve in Portugal since 1999 .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Portugal#cite_note-16
So your comment is moot since all these cultures, except maybe France, are renowned for their Macho manly men ideals (think the suave Latin lover or the Italian that swoops women off their feet) just like your John Wayne image of the US (as a foreigner I can tell you thats not how we see you, cowboys yes, but not in a good way, more shoot first ask questions later than the hero in the white hat, sorry but its true. Too much of the world you are hot heads or even rednecks, its not nice or even very accurate but especially after the last few years it has become a common stereotype. Again I apologize since I know that is not even a fraction of 1% of you guys) and yet they are man enough to allow openly serving Gay men and women. There is no reason to exclude openly Gay men and women from serving and these are just the last desperate attempts by those who believe their personal biases are the majority to imped the process. Hopefully in 5-10 years we can look back at this with a sort of ” do you remember when” attitude.

Does anyone really thing that during a firefight, some Marine is going to worry about whether the guy next to him is checking out his ass? Please! Are you serious?

I know it’s pointless, but this sandbag commandant disgusts me. He’s Major Burns in all his glory. Semper Fi in Jesus name. I can only think of gunny’s comment back at # 3, this guy needs to go. Seriously.

“Spain allows transgendered to serve”
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We even let transgender people serve in field hospitals in the Korean war. Times have truly changed.

As the Pentagon’s own Stars and Stripes newspaper reports:
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Ultimately, the voices of forward-fighting combat Marines who worried about unit cohesion in the “Pentagon’s Survey” swayed Marine Corps Commandant Gen. James Amos’ attention more than any other data point, leading him to recommend that Congress not repeal the law banning openly gay Americans from military service.
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How dare General Amos express his opinion and that of his Marines. Doesn’t he know he is supposed to be Politically Correct?
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This decorated war hero, who has put his life in danger fighting for our country, was asked to give his honest opinion to Congress. That is what he did. Now most of you Liberals want to demonize him. Can’t you disagree with someone’s opinion and not go after them personally?
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I will never understand the Liberal mind. You demonize anyone who doesn’t believe as you do. How you can justify your demeaning of other the way that you do makes no sense.
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Let those of you who have done more for your country than General Amos cast the first stone.

As some of you may know I’m actually signed up and heading to the Marines next summer and I have no problem with gays in the military. As long as the guy next to me can shoot a rifle and hit the guy trying to kill us I couldn’t care less who he daydreams about or sleeps with.
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That said, jazz648 makes a very valid point. The real (sorry for the use of this term) “flamers” aren’t going to join the military, and the homosexuals that do are probably not going to wear it on their sleeve. However, I suspect that this guy is worried about something else; training. As in being distracted during training may lead to deaths on the battlefield. Why I say this is because the USMC uses A LOT of sexual slurs in an attempt to motivate recruits in training. From my understanding the Drill Instructor (DI) in Full Metal Jacket is pretty close to reality (which isn’t surprising since he WAS a DI). The “Are you some sort of fa***t?!?” line doesn’t (usually) offend people who aren’t gay in TBS or OCS because they understand that it’s being used in an attempt to motivate them to work harder.
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Real homosexuals however might have a serious problem with this sort of language being screamed right in their face by a giant, scary Sargent. This could lead to a number of problems that could disrupt the training regimen. Further it could, and probably would lead to lawsuits alleging discrimination or even hate crimes. Let’s be honest here there are probably a few anti-war and gay rights groups that would be willing to plant a homosexual in USMC training just to start a lawsuit.
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That, in short, can not be allowed to happen. Personally, I think this whole thing needs to be phased in for the simple fact that a salty Marine DI who’s been doing his job damn well for 20 years isn’t going to change is approach overnight, and without proper time to adjust to new rules it could cause problems.
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I do agree with a prior poster however that the “gay witch hunts” have to stop, they are counter productive. (Also, shouldn’t it be “lesbian witch hunts” and “gay warlock hunts”?)

Time magazine “asks”: “Remember the good old days? When troops were afraid of Russians?”

I never knew any infantrymen who were “afraid of Russians”.

Evidently, Thompson’s understanding of “troops” was developed by talking to a couple of JAG officers.

BTW, does anyone know how a militant, virulent, homosexual activist like U.S. Army Private Bradley “Wikileaks” Manning was allowed to enlist and then remain in the United States Army?

Also, why are all of the political activists from the Washington/New York/American press corps completely silent about Manning’s virulent, militant homosexuality? Is it because any mention of Manning’s homosexual activism would not help the Washington/New York/American press corps impose its political agenda on the United States military and the United States of America?

Textee: I hear you are a virulent, militant homosexual. I hear you hate America and are cowardly. I hear you are anti-Christian and love the jihad. Is it true?

Thar she blows! America bad!!

Is that indeed what you heard aper? Or is that just more of your worthless hot air? Still no life?

There’s way more homophobes out there than there are homos. Again, majority should rule.

“There’s way more homophobes out there than there are homos. Again, majority should rule”
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It’s the military – chain of command and all that jazz.

3x

“This decorated war hero, who has put his life in danger fighting for our country, was asked to give his honest opinion to Congress. That is what he did. Now most of you Liberals want to demonize him. Can’t you disagree with someone’s opinion and not go after them personally?
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I will never understand the Liberal mind. You demonize anyone who doesn’t believe as you do. How you can justify your demeaning of other the way that you do makes no sense.”
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How about all the decorated brass that says that it ain’t no thing and should go away?
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It’s interesting that you ask us to disagree without being personal but you and others make it personal all the time. The above about ‘liberals’ is one of them and then the whole ‘liberal’ mind.
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I personally don’t understand anyones ability to slobber genetically over one homophobic persons idea how this is ‘dangerous’ without one single supporting fact. It’s no more dangerous that having girlfriends, puppies or kids at home. Everything serve as distraction and if you’re worried about if Bob is homosexual and that he might hit on you in a firefight you do not belong in the military.
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There are many other military forces around the world who let gay people serve openly and it’s no more distracting than any other personal matter.
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Unless the commander can show any imperical data that prove that this is a true and dangerous distraction than it’s nothing more that homophobia. With so many countries with openly serving homosexuals; some with professional armies and others with conscript it should be relatively easy to find all the corroborating data in the world.
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Otherwise it’s nothing other that pure BS.

“The Army is not a sociological laboratory; to be effective it must be organized and trained according to the principles which will insure success. Experiments to meet the wishes and demands of the champions of every race and creed for the solution of their problems are a danger to efficiency, discipline and morale and would result in ultimate defeat.” — Col. Eugene R. Householder, Dec 8, 1941

Ask any US Marine who’s fought alongside Australians whether they’re “wusses” or not.

They allow gays to serve openly. Even in the SASR. Have done since the time they took on the largest Muslim country on Earth, Indonesia – without US help.

They were in Desert Storm, they’re in Iraq and Afghanistan now.

They’re only a small force – barely one Division – but every one is either jump-qualified, or trained in behind the lines operations. Every one the equivalent of LRRPs, Rangers, ACAV or Special Forces. They have to be, to defend a country the size of the continental USA with only one division, and 180 million muslims next door.

Gays are already in the USMC. The difference is now that a Marine who’s been wounded and shipped back to the USA would now be allowed to see his or her partner – even if of the same sex – without fearing automatic discharge.

For the good of the military, I wish those two closet homosexuals, Gates and Mullins, would resign.

We are approaching this thing @$$ backwards. This is a democratic republic and not a judicial oligarchy. We need to clean out the rat’s nest of liberal democrat activist judges in the court system rather than restructure society in the perverse manner that they want. For example, in the last election, Iowa they voted out 3 of the judges that forced homosexual marriage on the state of Iowa. You see, the Iowa state constitution allows voters the right to remove judges that they find off-center. Great strides toward a rational system of justice would be made if California amended its state constitution to give voters the same right.

How true. How cool would it be to just have an up or down vote on every issue that directly effects us a citizenry. Pure fantasy I know, but the other end of the spectrum is so one sided. Willing to bet all I own that were this an issue on a ballot, the pro gay agenda would be soundly defeated and it’s advocates laughed out the room. Instead we see such a small warped fraction of society have the largest voice time and time again.

Hippo,
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Do you realize what you are actually saying?
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When called before Congress and placed under oath.
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The General should not honestly answer the question or state his opinion.
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He should lie to Congress and give the views of some other generals rather than his own.
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This makes no logical sense.

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I don’t see a problem in civilian life to work with homosexuals as long as they are clean, healthy, ‘fit in’ and are not as sick (physical and mental) as many of those who can be seen at their parades in many cities. By the way, the same goes for none-homosexuals. I worked with some really terrific guys who I had not the slightest idea they were homosexuals. Nothing changed for me when I found out about their preferences. They were men who did not make an issue of their differences and that is in most cases the reason why things go bad or not.

The military life is a totally different thing and I content that anybody who has never served in the military, especially as a combat soldier, has no clue whatsoever what he is talking about. Has no idea what situations one is confronted with on a daily basis, besides the shooting situations and the bloody mess that confronts one afterward.

Out of the many ‘iffy’ situations I experienced, as a draftee in my ‘military carrier’ of 18 months in the German 1st. Airborne (Fallschirmjäger) Division in the mid-1960′s, this one happen toward the end of Basic-Training. Our company-commander set up every exercise, and this one was in the field about 5 miles from the barrack area, as a competition between the squads of his company with a price of a long weekend pass for the winning squad. That is like winning a pot of gold since we only got two regular weekends off in basic-training anyway. Our airborne squads were 12 men strong and all of us by that time were in pretty good condition, at least we thought so. But we had private Ackermann. Private Ackermann was a 25 year old Banker in civilian life, a married father of one daughter by the time he got drafted. The rest of us was 20 and 21 years of age. For running and strength stuff he needed 2 guys to push, pull, carry most of his equipment and heave him along and over things.

He started to tire about a mile into the run, we carried around 40 pounds of ‘stuff’, and his two ‘helpers’ had to, from early on, carry parts and pieces of his things. While running we 9 other guys developed a ‘relay’ system of pushing and pulling private Ackermann without losing squad-speed. After 3 or so miles we came to that steep, muddy, 100m long hill with a few small bushes and skinny trees. Without stopping we got out 2 ropes, tied one end each to private Ackermann’s belly, grabbed the loop on the other end and 2 men on each rope pulled him while the 5ths one pushed and heaved him over obstacles. When a ‘helper’ tired, a ‘spare’ one took his place and so on until we made it over the hill-top. We kept up this system of helping private Ackermann until we made it over the ‘goal-line’. We won this squad competion with minutes to spare to the 2nd place finisher and had our long weekend pass.

On the Sunday evening, when all ‘vacationers’ came back, private Ackermann came back with a gigantic Kuchen or to be specific a Schwarzwälder Kirsch-Torte and enough Bohnen-Kaffee for the whole squad. His wife made the Kuchen for our efforts and we all loved her for it.

Now, if private Ackermann were a known homosexual, I doubt it very much that we had this kind of cooperation in our squad and none of the good things that happened afterward. What I did not mention in my story, it was a hot humid day after a night of none stop rain. We were sweating profusely, from the often tripping and falling on that hill and in other muddy areas, we were covered from top to bottom in mud. We often had to grab private Ackermann by his arms, his clothing, his butt and belt and he had to hold on to whatever he could grab on us, to make it across or over obstacles. There was a lot of skin contact and the sweat was flying everywhere. Also what I did not mention until now, this was a cross country run with boots, steel helmet, our rifles with several spare magazines and around 40pounds in our backpacks, thru thick woods, thorn-bushes, creeks, up hills, down hills and over slick grass. We 11 guys were around 5”10′ to 6”1′ and soaking wet weight around 140pounds each. Private Ackermann was around 5”8′ and weight around 250pounds. When we arrived at our destination, he was totally exhausted, but never once complained to take a breather, stop or sit down.

Situations like this where there is physical contact, skin to skin, sweat and saliva and even in peacetime activities blood contact to a comrade happen enough times in the field and at barrack duty, they are impossible to avoid. Knowing the other guy is a homosexual, there will be a pull back, a hesitation, a question mark. When this happens in peacetime, what is going to happen in a firefight? Maybe nothing, maybe one will die. We can’t take that chance and Marine-General James Amos is correct with his statement to keep ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ and the opposing politicians be damned.

3x, ever heard of the chicken/egg puzzle? Those serving under the top dog pay attention to his views. Whether their opinion was affected or not, you can know this for sure…Amos’ views and prejudice toward homos was fixed long before this survey. It is a lie to say that his present position was based on what Marines in the field thought. The man is a poor leader and should go take his place on Fox, where you will have more access to his drivel.

springer, that was interesting. Slightly incoherent, rambling, off topic, irrelevant, but still, interesting. I won’t even bother to point out inconsistencies in your pitch for the Jesus freak, weak sister Amos, but thanks for the brave effort.

Springer – DADT repeal wouldn’t allow gays to serve in the military. Current laws already allow that, and gays do indeed serve.

It just means that they wouldn’t have to keep the fact that they’re gay secret.

Your arguments are exactly, and I do mean *exactly* the same as those used by opponents of segregation: that they could work with someone who “passed for white” as long as they didn’t know he was “really a n1gger”.

zoebrain -

yes I know there are many homosexuals serving already in all branches of the military, so what? They don’t advertise and that is the difference.

I don’ know about the arguments about black -white issues way back then. I just read about it and that does not translate feelings, opinions, environment etc, accurately. I beg to differ, I did not use arguments from that time. A black person cannot change his skin color, but a homosexual can change, there is plenty of evidence..

formerlyjames -

I didn’t know the General is a Jesus freak. See, now you offended me too. Your critic on my ‘story’ is accepted. It is rambling, not off topic, inconsistencies maybe, but I wrote it this way on purpose. I could have said what I had in mind in 2 or 3 sentences. Though, that would not have told any none military person what can and will happen on the ‘grunt’ level and that is what this dadt thing is mostly about. Theoretical discussions in an ivory tower with air condition and sanitary everything and enough physical space between the humans, is just that – theoretical, not applicable in a grunt environment and that is exactly my worry.

As a lame analogy I give you this to think about: I have seen it in the field at a particular manöver. My attacking platoon was running toward a new position under very little natural cover at dawn. The first few Fallschirmjäger made it undetected when suddenly all hell broke lose. What happen was this, a Fallschirmjäger plopped down very near another Fallschirmjäger who happen to have a fresh outbreak of bad acne and in the twilight his face was a horrible looking mask. The new guy was startled for a moment, leaned back and his aluminum Water can hit a rock, that made a noise and the ‘enemy’ was alerted and half my platoon was taking prisoner. That is all that it takes and you are dead in real life.

Lets say the soldier laying in hiding already is a known homosexual, dadt is gone, the new guy does not like homosexuals and happens to plop unbeknownst to him beside the man. With the tension high already he will be startled and there will be unintended movement that can easily alert the enemy, what then? I can give you a thousand and more like situations, and I can guarantee you also, those feelings of animosity will never go away. You can’t order them away, you can’t legislate them away, you can’t wish them away. The only way you can have such disparate people working together, is when the other one does not know!

But, there is a problem with keeping secrets, it is almost impossible to keep anything secret for any length of time. All I can say to this unsolvable problem, I am glad I am not in the military anymore, if I were, I’d retire in a hurry.