About That Federal Pay Freeze…Exemption

…it is becoming increasingly difficult to argue that they are underpaid…

Especially considering the fact that mercenaries private military contractors can make that amount in around two months.

About That Federal Pay Freeze

It’s about union-busting and driving down support for Obama, who increasingly appears to have no plan for counterattack or the desire to make one.

What are you talking about? The basic pay is below the median income in the U.S. For a job that can get you killed. It’s sick what we’ve asked of these volunteers and what we give them in return.

Kill a guy, get a raise. Is that what it takes now?
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Thank you for your service to our country. But when it comes to brass tacks killing people is really what it’s all about.

Perhaps I misread you, it is Obama’s pay freeze>

This should be a reply to post 1

Busted Union or busted budgets. American people voted they were tired of paying more of their tax dollars to support a bloated infrastructure of overpaid under qualified people that you can’t fire short of murder.

Another pathetic liberal sob story!

it is becoming increasingly difficult to argue that they are underpaid
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I know! That’s almost 2% of what top AIG executives earned in bonuses during the year we bailed them out.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/WallStreet/story?id=7102959&page=1

I mean, we throw them a parade every year. Now they want a middle-class income as well?

I speak of war in general, not the reasons behind giving them a pay raise.
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Freep, it’s difficult to make an argument with someone who thinks of opponents as reprobates.

“Freep, it’s difficult to make an argument with someone who thinks of opponents as reprobate”
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First, that’s precious given the name calling and degradation conservatives go through here. Second, its not the opponents its their philosophy

Who do those executives at AIG think they work for? Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac?

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http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/12/24/2009-12-24_fannie_mae_and_freddie_mac_ceos_salaries_may_top_6_million_for_2009.html

What in the world are you talking about? The freeze does not apply to the military so who is risking their life?
There are so many people who can’t read or understand why is going on but they blab, blab and blab. Take “freeinpa” — he thinks everything evil in this country is because of the Libs. Hello!!!! It was the Neocons who took us to war based on lies. And, guess what, they knew it. It was Wolfowitz, Perle, Card, Rove, Libby and group who made up the story of WMD. Do your research.
Also, it was the GOP that lacked oversight of the financial markets (they were being paid) that caused the crash which we are all suffering.
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…it is Obama’s pay freeze.
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Now it is, yes.
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The GOPers sharpened a knife and handed it to Obama, who then promptly proceeded to slit his own throat. When what was presented with a tough decision – face right-wing hyperventilating over government salaries or letting down the people who voted you into office -
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Now, I know that the idea was to take the talking point away before it became a bigger faux-trage, but A) pissing on the unions doesn’t help your cause or your country and B) even if you are willing to do A, you don’t give it up before negotiations even started.
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What the Obama administration is seeming not to understand is that – no matter how Republican-lite they act – they aren’t going to win the mushy middle by being weak and capitulating before the fight even starts.
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What is needed is some hard-core, common-sense populism and the ability to trade punches when the inevitable false accusations of ‘socialism’ and ‘big government’ start flying.

Since 2007 the number of employees in the Executive branch has risen 17%, total civilian workforce up 22% and the Depart. of Defense up 9%.

Yes it would be heartless to freeze pay (not fire) on an out of control growth in employees but we should freeze those who are in harm’s way. But let’s not question patriotism

As a federal employee, why do you need a union to represent you? There shouldn’t be any unions in public section jobs, none. Imagine if the armed services had a union…

nfl, Congrats, you prove that you are an idiot.

Freeinpa
your post says the CEOs of Fanny and Freddie may (that is the maximum, it could be less) get a total of 6 million this year, the link Art posted showed that one executive got a bonus of 6.4 million, while multiple others got bonuses of greater than 4 million above and beyond their normal salary at AIG. So you’re saying that the CEO of Freedie Mac and Fannie Mae are overpaid because their yearly salary is the same as the bonuses paid to comparable CEO’s in a private company? Look I agree that all these salaries are obscene, but your argument does not hold water.

grape_crush:

I agree. I believe President Obama was trying to forestall worse suggestions (that we’ve been hearing about) than a pay freeze. Such as pay cut, 2 weeks without pay, etc. I don’t have a problem with a pay freeze, per se. I don’t mind doing my part even though it will create some hardship for me and mine. I do want to know what the purpose of this gesture was. I’m a little bit sick of the blue team giving up negotiations before the red team ever gets to the table.
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As for freeinpa’s opinion,
“tired of paying more of their tax dollars to support a bloated infrastructure of overpaid under qualified people that you can’t fire short of murder.”
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He has no idea what he’s talking about. The few of us that are left where I work (no hiring since 1991) are all well qualified professionals committed to the well-being and safety of our troops. We often work nights and weekends, many of us travel constantly. We do more with less, much as I expect is true of our counterparts in private industry. The only ones making out like bandits where I work, are private contractors.

After further review, I rest my case.

When what was presented with a tough decision – face right-wing hyperventilating over government salaries or letting down the people who voted you into office

Strike this part in the prior comment, as it’s not supposed to be in there.

And how does this impact the President? What about those trips, vacations and otherwise, Michelle takes? will this continue at the present rate? Everyone must take responsibility for this dismal economy, yes everyone!, including the President. My bills and living expenses are not exempt because of this economy! Should his?

Is the number of the first lady’s personal staff necessary? How does her staff stack up with previous personal staffs? Come on now, Nero fiddles while Rome is burning? Could care less the a fashion plate status. Let’s show some concern and empathy here. Lets be real here. People are losing their homes, people are unemployed! We don’t need another grass roots revolt. I supported the change in Washington, but lets not forget what we were promised!

Since 2007 the number of employees in the Executive branch has risen 17%, total civilian workforce up 22% and the Depart. of Defense up 9%.
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First, please provide a link to where you pulled those stats from.
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Second, please provide some analysis as to the breakdown in hiring by department.

Well yes it is Obama’s and he owns it and should pay for it. He is acting in the interests of the GOP and will continue to do so. I can hardly wait for his SS stance. A wet noodle.

Alex, Thompson says the military isn’t underpaid. I take issue with that, given the chart he posted.

Also, I disagree with the civilian employee pay freeze.

It’s the WSJ on-line, you need a subscription and they don’t provide breakouts. I am sure you will do your level best to justify job and salary growth that has outpaced private sector and inflation.

“After further review, I rest my case.”
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Good news any further effort and you might have hurt yourself

That was just one article covering CEOs, other have received similar bonuses and we could go back to when they were cooking the books and dozens received tens of millions in bonuses. But that isn’t good theater when you can take a cheap shot at a corporation. Of course taxpayers are on the hook for an ever increasing tab for Fannie and Freddie.

Where do you think the stimulus money went? It went to paying public employees salaries. State, federal, local government employees got to keep their jobs, with no salary or benefit cuts, while the rest of the workforce is out trying to scrap together a living and paying the taxes that support those union public employees.
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In California the public employee unions run the state. Can’t cut them, can’t fire them, can’t rid the state of an over bloated government.
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http://www.nctimes.com/news/opinion/perspective/article_8b6bfd98-44bc-5016-85a9-311e2890a614.html
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Since the recession began, nearly 1 million Californians have lost their jobs. In August, only three California industries added jobs —- one of them was our state government. Yes, despite the famous California furloughs, our government has added another 2,000 people to the payroll.

Is it any wonder that the budget passed just a few months ago already has another $1.1 billion shortfall?

California’s liberal Democrats managed to save countless government jobs by implementing furloughs. Furloughs, forced time off without pay, are the weakest of management tools to reduce labor costs. While they help avoid severance costs, outplacement fees or early retirement benefits, they do nothing to address the uncontrolled growth in California’s state government. On the contrary, as the economy improves, they enable a near-immediate expansion in government spending to our bloated pre-recession levels.

For some reason, California’s public labor unions seem to believe that government jobs should not only be exempt from the layoffs seen in private industry, but that our beleaguered private industry should support their demands for even more lavish pensions, better health benefits, and salary raises, regardless of our current economic plight.

“It’s about union-busting and driving down support for Obama, who increasingly appears to have no plan for counterattack or the desire to make one.”

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And this is about total bull-crap. Thank God the Military is not unionized. Can you imagine a walk-out by a Union-led strike with our Military?

freeinpa: Then I’m glad we’re in agreement about executive compensation.

“But that isn’t good theater when you can take a cheap shot at a corporation. Of course taxpayers are on the hook for an ever increasing tab for Fannie and Freddie.”
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Fannie and Freddie are corporations, you moron.

I am sure you will do your level best to justify job and salary growth that has outpaced private sector and inflation.
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Not me. Especially since that hasn’t happened in the first place, Freeper.
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You’re (unsurprisingly) operating on a false premise, that government employees are more richly compensated than their peers in the private sector. It simply ain’t so and even ain’t more so at the state and local level.
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Not that you will accept it, but you can read why your premise is false here:
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http://rortybomb.wordpress.com/2010/11/15/are-government-employees-overpaid-still-no/
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Takeaway:
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“Again, there’s simply little fat to cut here. Government workers are less compensated than private workers – cutting more will simply mean a weaker workforce with less human capital, which will lead to weaker government services. Which will discredit the idea of government, which I guess is the point for some people.”

fog, since you dispute my premise, what has been the mission of the military in Europe for the last 55 years? Who have they been killing? In Korea?
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So, according to you the military in Iraq and Afghanistan is only there to kill a guy, and that’s all they do. I rest my case.

There’s a lot of misinformation/speculation in this thread. This pay freeze only covers federal employees. So information about state/local workers, while interesting, has nothing to do with the topic.
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AFGE is the federal employee’s union. They work on behalf of the bargaining unit which does not include management. The bargaining unit has no right to strike, and hasn’t since President Reagan fired the air traffic controllers. With no right to strike, the power of this union is pretty curtailed. It is most effective at the national level where it pays attention to legislation/policy that effects federal employees. Even so, I don’t think there’s much that AFGE can do when the president calls for a pay freeze (besides press releases, which AFGE has already done).

“Fannie and Freddie are corporations, you moron”
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I forgot that we have knuckleheads in the crowd and need to have every last syllable explained. I should have said a public for profit and not a Government Sponsored Entity
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“Then I’m glad we’re in agreement about executive compensation.”
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Possibly in so far as every one should be paid by merit, but I gather that’s not a big priority for the left

“Who have they been killing?”
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New entitlement spending here. When you spend on defense you can’t re-distribute that wealth to another program.

The “trips”, like the one to Asia a few weeks back are necessary to Obama’s job. Every president since Washington has traveled overseas and every president in the future will do so as well.
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It just so happens that except for the cost of the secret service detail (which we’d pay for even if Obama spent the entire 4 years locked in the WH) Obama pays for his own vacations.
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But still, Obama’s “trips, vacations and otherwise” (what is otherwise, anyway?) a far, far fewer than Bush’s had been. Bush spent more time on his ranch than he had in the WH. And I would imagine the logistics of securing hundreds of acres had been a headache for the SS.

This is only slightly OT, but it occurred to me while getting groceries why there was no cut off point in the pay freeze. The federal pay scale is based on step and grade. For example: A WG-10 step 3 might make 25/hr. A WG-10 step 2 might be making 24.30/hr. If the pay freeze had a cut-off at 50k per year the step 2 would get a raise and the step 3 wouldn’t. After the cost of living raise the step 2 would be making the same as the higher step employee. There are several grades such as WY, WG and WA. They all have different pay scales. It would make a shambles of the system to have a cut-off point because you get step increases according to how much time you have in a particular grade.
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This doesn’t give any comfort to lower grade employees facing a freeze, but it does seem to be a logical explanation of why there was no cut-off.

The military is the only government agency that doesn’t buy their supplies from China.

The military is the only government agency that doesn’t buy their supplies from China.
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Maybe, but the military’s US suppliers do…or else stuff like this wouldn’t happen:
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2008/oct/06/security.china
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“Fake microchips from China are causing a growing number of failures in military systems, according to an investigation by BusinessWeek magazine.
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The FBI is also investigating a consignment of Cisco-badged routers which turned out to be counterfeit – and could have been used to hack into sensitive equipment.
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The investigation found that the new tendency for the US Pentagon to buy equipment from off-the-shelf suppliers – some of them operating from residential addresses – has led to a fall in quality of supplied chips”

As only Krugman could:

Yep, that’s exactly what we needed: a transparently cynical policy gesture, trivial in scale but misguided in direction, and in effect conceding that your bitter political opponents have the right idea.

With linkies: http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/11/29/freeze-frame/

Um… so what rank does this graph refer to? I surely know of no one that has served in the military making $80K a year.
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My cousin (once removed) left the Army as a Lt. Colonel in 2005 and she was only making like $72K per year after all her benefits and that’s as one of the highest ranks you can achieve.
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Certainly there is no one who is E (enlisted) making anywhere near $80K per year. As someone about to attempt to become a 1st Lt. in the Marines, I would get about $32K per year and with every benefit imaginable including combat/hardship pay I would only rise to about $43K per year.
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So yeah… whom does this graph (that appears to be been made in MS Paint which in my mind makes it somewhat suspect) refer to?

Obama supports “freezing” federal, civilian employee wages for a whopping two years? What a joke.

All federal, civilian wages should immediately be reduced 65% and then frozen for at least 40 years.

United States federal, civilian employees are the most grossly overpaid people in history.

grapes crushed, how do you plug in your computer under that bush you live under? Or, do you have to go to the library?
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http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2010-03-04-federal-pay_N.htm#chart

free,

“It’s the WSJ on-line, you need a subscription and they don’t provide breakouts.”
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Please print the link.
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Often if one has the article title, one can find the full WSJ article somewhere else online; people of the WSJ persuasion love to cut/paste its most “conservative” rants on their blogs.
Besides, what makes you assume that no readers here subscribe?
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And the link is:…
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Nothing. That’s what I thought.

“The military is the only government agency that doesn’t buy their supplies from China.”
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“WASHINGTON, May 1 — Facing growing criticism from Congress, the Army has decided to recall and dispose of hundreds of thousands of black berets made in China, officials announced today.”
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http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/02/world/army-recalling-china-made-black-berets.html

Herby, crushed grapes, et al…

I posted a link at the bottom of the page that has a chart showing the large pay differences for federal employees.
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FOR EXAMPLE: a graphic designer makes $25,000 more working for the feds.
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Here’s another link:
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http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm
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Now you have no excuse to be ignorant.

One big problem with your USAtoday story libmelt is that it really does lump groups together that have different requirements. Take a look just within crane operators, where the difference in pay is substantially between private and public. Within this seemingly homogeneous group, if you look at the labor board’s stats is a wide range of jobs with a wide range of pays. The highest paid is a Aerospace Product and Parts Manufacturing worker at $ 66,560 (there are only 320 of those) while the lowest is a Iron and Steel Mills and Ferroalloy Manufacturing operator at $44,270(there are 3550 of them). Now think of those jobs, one is moving extremely expensive complicated and delicate components of aircraft, weapons and scientific space research, the other is moving raw iron and steel. Which is the more complex and difficult task? Which would require more experience operating a crane before being hired, and thus be made up of on average more senior and well paid workers? Thats the problem with list like these, every job has so many subclassifications that require different levels of skill that you cannot directly compare them. In this example, given how NASA is one of the biggest users and producers of aerospace and the fact the feds have little to no steel mills under their stewardship, the proportion of the highly paid (due to more experience, as the conservatives love to say they are paid more because they have earned it) to lower paid is higher in the fed compared to private sector. This sort of balance permeates all the categories (i.e. chemist the fed like to employ highly respected and proven talent to deal with situations like chemical spills or warfare, the private sector can hire someone with a B.sc. because they are one of a thousand reviewing the new paint on the next barbie doll or cooks where you have people like the presidents chief and the people who cook for the top military brass lumped in with a short order diner cook).
This is why you can’t do simple studies like this (if someone tried to do this in an academic setting tehy would be laughed at), you need to account for all the variables, and that does not make good copy. So I am sorry Libmelt, I know you love sticking a knife into the liberal posters here, but your article is actually based on a deeply flawed framework and shows nothing more than the federal government tends to be made up of more senior and experienced people handling more delicate, secretive and important projects than the same “class” of worker in the private sector. We have known that for years, it is not something that should be alarming, because in the end don’t you want the best and brightest to have a say in how your country is run? If there is a new pandemic sweeping the globe who do you want at CDC, a world renowned virologist whose spent decades studying how disease spread or a new resident just out of school who was in the bottom 10% of their class? Should they both be paid the same? Wait isn’t that communism where no matter how good you are or how hard you work you can never get paid more than anyone else? Are you a communist Liberalmeltdown? ( I jest, do not get all upset, it was a joke)

Okay. Two things stand out in my mind.

One: The chart that started the whole column includes the huge increase in PCS or relocation pay (which you only get for moving, and which goes to cover actual expenses) and disability benefits. The average service member doesn’t move every year, nor are they on disability while on active duty. I call shenanigans on that chart.

Two: I’m not sure about other federal employees, but the benefits and job security are the only thing I have more of than my private sector counterparts. With 5 years of experience, friends who graduated at the same time as I did with a similar degree (engineering at the same top 25 school) are making over 6 figures in the private sector. I’m still solidly in the 5 figure range, as are all of my public sector friends with similar backgrounds. A difference of $30-40k a year base salary seems pretty drastic to me. (I don’t have to work more than 40 hours a week, so there’s a perk there, but i also don’t get to increase my salary through overtime, either.)

Additionally, the reason that the government has been paying above inflation for the last few years is because they were mandated by law to close the gap to 5% in each locality 20 years ago in the Federal Employees Pay Comparability Act and even then, they still really hasn’t made any progress. (click)

My favorite illustrative quote on what it would supposedly take to get civil servants to private sector levels:

“In 2012, for example, that would require Washington-area feds to receive a 66.6 percent raise, based on OPM’s statistical analysis. But every year — even during the surplus years of the late 1990s — the government has used a loophole to avoid such large raises.”

Now, this doesn’t mean that their method of calculation isn’t madness (there’s talk of wanting to reform the calculation), but there is at least a reason behind the pay raises.

And lastly to address the comment about the graphic designer someone knows who makes $80k: at least in my organization, I don’t know any non-scientist/engineer, non-supervisor, non-program management federal employees making over $50-60k a year. (Anecdotal, but still.) And if they’re on GS schedule, they won’t unless they’ve got a college degree.

“Two: I’m not sure about other federal employees, but the benefits and job security are the only thing I have more of than my private sector counterparts.”
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I’m a civilian employee of the military. Where I pick up a significant amount of extra money is shift work (7.5% for 4-12 and 10% for midinight). We get 10 holidays a year (double time) and time and a quarter for Sundays. That works out to around 9k extra a year. I work outside a good bit year round regardless of the weather and it does take a toll on you. I average 8 hours of OT a year (unless there’s a flood and on one instance I worked 24 hours straight doing heavy lifting).
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I get one weekend off a month and rotating shifts plays havoc with any kind of sleep schedule. I like my schedule though. If there was any way I could NEVER work another daylight shift, I’d jump at the chance.

13 and 14 the stats come from the government: The Bureau of Labor Statistics.
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This story has been widely reported and most of you here should have heard about it, unless you get your news from Comedy Central and a bong.
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IF, there were a problem with the stats, I am absolutely positive that the Daily KOS would have sent their minions here to spread their propaganda.