The Growing Chasm Between Citizen and Soldier

While the Pentagon’s top military leader spoke of a rash of weekend suicides over breakfast Wednesday, its civilian boss warned in a late afternoon talk at Duke University that the nation and its military are growing apart.

Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs, said suicides and war’s other post-combat problems are on the rise. Defense Secretary Robert Gates focused on the rest of us, and how and why the defenders and defended increasingly are going their separate ways (sounds like he read our post on this  topic last week).

Gates at Duke University/DoD photo

Gates encouraged Duke students to consider a military career, after detailing the expanding gap between citizen and soldier. He didn’t have any answers — beyond calling on those attending elite schools to consider donning a uniform — but it’s great that he’s asking the question:

For most Americans the wars remain an abstraction, a distant and unpleasant series of news items that do not affect them personally. Even 9/11, in the absence of a draft, for a growing number of Americans, service in the military, no matter how laudable, has become something for other people to do.

In fact, with each passing decade, fewer and fewer Americans know someone with military experience in their family or socials circle. According to one study, in 1988, about 40 percent of 18-year-olds had a veteran parent. By 2000, the share had dropped to 18 percent and is projected to fall below 10 percent in the future.

In broad demographic terms, the armed forces continue to be largely representative of the country as a whole, drawing predominantly from America’s working and middle classes. There are disparities when it comes to racial composition of certain specialties and ranks, especially the most senior officers, but all in all, the fears expressed when the all-volunteer force was first instituted — that the only people left willing to serve would be the poorest, the worst-educated, the least able to get any other job — simply did not come to pass.

…the nearly four decades of an all-volunteer force has reinforced a series of demographic, cultural and institutional shifts affecting who is most likely to serve and from where. Studies have shown that one of the biggest factors in propensity to join the military is growing up near those who have or are serving. In this country, that propensity to serve is most pronounced in the South and the Mountain West, and in rural areas and small towns nationwide — a propensity that well exceeds these communities’ proportion of the population as a whole. Now, currently, the percentage of the force from the Northeast, the West Coast and major cities continues to decline. I’m also struck by how many young troops I meet who grew up in military families, and by the large number of our senior officers whose children are in uniform, including the recent commander of all U.S. forces in Iraq whose son was seriously wounded in the war.

The Marines’ own — the military’s own basing and recruiting decisions have reinforced this growing concentration among certain regions and families. With limited resources, the services focus their recruiting effort on candidates where they’re most likely to have success with those who have friends, classmates and parents who have already served. In addition, global basing changes in recent years have moved a significant percentage of the Army to posts in just five states: Texas, Washington, Georgia, Kentucky, and here in North Carolina. For otherwise rational environmental and budgetary reasons, many military facilities in the Northeast and on the West Coast have been shut down, leaving a void of relationships and understanding of the armed forces in their wake.

This trend also affects the recruiting and educating of new officers. The state of Alabama, with a population of less than 5 million, has 10 Army — has 10 Army ROTC host programs. The Los Angeles metro area, population over 12 million, has four host ROTC programs. And the Chicago metro area, population 9 million, has three.

It makes sense to focus on places where space is ample and inexpensive, where candidates are most inclined to sign up and pursue a career in uniform. But there is a risk over time of developing a cadre of military leaders that politically, culturally and geographically have less and less in common with the people they have sworn to defend.

Related Topics: gates, military service, Troops, National Security
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  • allthingsinaname

    Something for nothing; isn’t that what we want?

  • destor23

    There are two and only two solutions to this problem.

    1) Increase the pay and benefits, and amend the terms of service for volunteer soldiers to make more people from more walks of life want to sign up. Even getting rid of the stop-loss provisions might make service more appealing to people who could see doing it for 2-4 years but have other goals in life. But pay and benefits are obviously an issue too. If you don’t have a lot of people willing to do the jobs you have open, you absolutely have to ask “are we making it worth people’s while?” before you ask, “what’s wrong with these people who won’t enlist?”

    2) If we’re unwilling to make the adjustments above, the other solution is to learn to live with a smaller military and to make policy decisions in accordance with that reality. By not enlisting, the American public is voting with its feet. Our leaders should react to this by fighting fewer wars and maintaining less of an overseas presence.

  • michaelfury

    They have not sworn to defend “the people”. They have sworn to “defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic”.

    http://michaelfury.wordpress.com/2010/04/07/payback/

  • allthingsinaname

    There is a third Mandatory Service. You just want a free ride.

  • destor23

    @allthingsina…

    I don’t want a free ride. I’d like a smaller military and fewer wars.

    Mandatory military service is immoral as it asks me to put my life on the line for causes I don’t necessarily agree with. I’ll decided what’s worth fighting for, thank you very much.

  • blossom38

    I’m a post-war baby boomer. The boys in my high school class (1971) were the first to participate in the lottery.
    During my youth, I remember that in nearly every home our family visited, it was rare not to see a picture of one of the sons or the dad in uniform from either WWII, Korea, or Vietnam in the collections of childhood pictures arranged on the piano, the mantle, or on the wall. These pictures and the assumption that some member of the family had served in the military was part of the canvas of the times.
    Now I cannot recall the last time I saw a picture of a military person in the home of someone I know~~a stark reminder of the changes in society in the years since the end of the draft.
    Should we resume the draft in order to spread the responsibility among all of the society? Or would the disparities of those days still exist, the upper class kids able to get deferments, the lower class kids unable to get out of service?
    Perhaps an Israeli-style draft: everyone serves; no deferments.

  • 11charlie

    Getting rid of DADT would help, too.

  • allthingsinaname

    Let us be honest here; you wouldn’t serve if you were paid to.
    .
    Government is a messy business and so is the Military, both are essential. Unless people are willing to be involved in both, both are going to disappoint.
    .
    I am very happy that you will decide what is worth fighting for and not us collectively. But hey it is free country but, I think not for long.

  • http://www.124monkeys.com Sean DeCoursey forgot his password

    How about the entire country and military go to war instead of just the Army and Marines?
    -
    Seriously, why can’t congress declare war anymore? What exactly is, and has been, the holdup on just declaring war on Al-Qaida?

  • oizydoizy

    Less of an overseas presence implies less ability to strong-arm others into selling us cheap oil. Which is fine, but the public is NOT voting for that. It wants cheap oil, but please don’t bother with the details of how you got it.

    It wants cheap vegetables. It also wants all the immigrants out of here. It wants cheap goods at Wal-Mart, and good-paying jobs for everyone. It wants Medicare and Social Security, but taxes are too darn high.

    I admire Sec. Gates, but touting responsibility is a lost cause.

  • allthingsinaname

    “I admire Sec. Gates, but touting responsibility is a lost cause.”
    .
    It would seem that way and, we only like Democracy when we are in the majority.

  • textee

    Did Gates mention that we have a militantly anti-military radical on the United States Supreme Court who illegally prohibited United States military recruiters from access to the Harvard law school?

    Did Gates mention that we have four other members (Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kennedy) of the United States Supreme Court who are probably just as militantly anti-military?

    Did Gates mention that Obama and his cronies want to impose the militantly anti-military “values” of the Democrat party base (i.e., the pagans, the atheists, the tree huggers, the race baiters, the flag burners, the draft dodgers, the socialists, the feminists (hahahahaha!) and the fundamentalist homosexualists) on the United States military?

  • destor23

    @allthings, you say, “But hey it is free country but, I think not for long.”

    There hasn’t been a war fought in my lifetime (I was born 1975) that had implications for America’s freedom if you define that as democracy and territorial integrity. I never asked anyone to invade Iraq twice and while I did begrudgingly support military action in Afghanistan after 9/11 it was certainly not with an eye towards a decade long occupation.

    @oizydoizy: I see what you’re saying but there’s nothing in our laws or founding documents that justifies the use of the military as a mercantile force.

  • destor23

    “Spread the responsibility” implies that our military has been and will be used responsibly. Since that hasn’t been the case, there’s no responsibility to share.

  • allthingsinaname

    “There hasn’t been a war fought in my lifetime (I was born 1975) that had implications for America’s freedom if you define that as democracy and territorial integrity.”
    .
    I do not. Democracy is simply the decision of people collectively. My comment had larger implications than just this thread.
    .
    I have been thinking of how it is that the far Right and now it seems the far left both are cheering on the failure of the government in order to achieve some grand idea of winning control.
    .
    You know I have my ideas but, I am not above believing that maybe I could be wrong. So you begrudgingly supported the war in Afghanistan as if all of us were happy at the prospect but found necessary as that government supported the Terrorists that hit us and would not turn over those responsible. Did Bush make of mess of it? Yes. So did that make it wrong? No. Would you have gone? No and, you didn’t.

  • kbanginmotown

    It’s Thursday, folks. Let’s try to refrain…

  • afguy

    ..and your chicks for free…(to quote Dire Straits).

  • afguy

    Thanks for reminding me, kbang.
    .
    I had just started to roll up my sleeves.. now I’ll refrain.
    .
    But just barely…

  • destor23

    @allthin…

    You make the statement that I didn’t go off to a war that nobody asked me to fight anyway as if I shirked some sort of moral commitment that I don’t recognize in the least. I grudgingly supported swift and limited action to capture the people who attacked us. What we got was certainly wrong.

  • centfan

    Okay, so there are a bunch of Red State families who think of military service as a right of passage. They’ll continue to vote for Republicans who fund outrageously expensive weapons systems that don’t work and that have no appropriate enemies to destroy, who don’t fund armor or VA hospitals, and don’t think that a soldier that has suffered a concussive head injury is actually injured. They’ll use the troops as human shields to get votes and won’t improve equipment or tactics because that would be admitting something is wrong. Flag draped coffins are a downer that don’t poll well unless the photo-op is well chosen.
    -
    Those that disagree with this treatment are un-American. Ironic. The military as a political hockey puck.

  • http://gaeliclass1.wordpress.com nichole32

    “Gates encouraged Duke students to consider a military career, after detailing the expanding gap between citizen and soldier. He didn’t have any answers — beyond calling on those attending elite schools to consider donning a uniform — but it’s great that he’s asking the question:”

    I have a problem with this paragraph. Can you explain why you think it’s great that he’s asking the question?
    Can more journalists press our military leaders as to why there is an “expanding gap”? Otherwise readers are left to speculate and come to our own conclusions.

    One of the finest literary figures of the world (IMO) wrote this when he deeply considered the questions of war:

    “That this social order with it’s pauperism, famines, prisons, gallows, armies, and wars is necessary to society, that still greater disaster would ensue if this organization were destroyed; all this is said only by those who profit by this organization, while those who suffer from it — and they are ten times as numerous think and say quite the contrary.”

    –Leo Tolstoy

    I’m not blaming the military as an institution, I think it is necessary. I think we can all agree we would like to see our soldiers taken care of much, much better than they are. I’m asking for our leaders and journalist to question who (and I mean literally) profits from these tragedies?

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Siegfried Sassoon, The Hero:

    ‘Jack fell as he’d have wished,’ the mother said,
    And folded up the letter that she’d read.
    ‘The Colonel writes so nicely.’ Something broke
    In the tired voice that quavered to a choke.
    She half looked up. ‘We mothers are so proud
    Of our dead soldiers.’ Then her face was bowed.

    Quietly the Brother Officer went out.
    He’d told the poor old dear some gallant lies
    That she would nourish all her days, no doubt
    For while he coughed and mumbled, her weak eyes
    Had shone with gentle triumph, brimmed with joy,
    Because he’d been so brave, her glorious boy.

    He thought how ‘Jack’, cold-footed, useless swine,
    Had panicked down the trench that night the mine
    Went up at Wicked Corner; how he’d tried
    To get sent home, and how, at last, he died,
    Blown to small bits. And no one seemed to care
    Except that lonely woman with white hair.

    Of course, regardless of how he died, he died in a pointless war, just as all of our soldiers who died in our invasion and occupation of Iraq died for nothing.
    -
    But it’s no fun to admit that, so like this white-haired woman, we tell ourselves Dulce et Decorum est Pro patria mori.

  • allthingsinaname

    “You make the statement that I didn’t go off to a war that nobody asked me to fight anyway as if I shirked some sort of moral commitment that I don’t recognize in the least”
    .
    Well there you go. Isn’t that what Gates is talking about. So when you supported the war were you asking someone else to go, hoping someone else would go, or didn’t care if anyone went or, what exactly? Let us have a war and see if anyone shows.

  • afguy

    If you don’t have a lot of people willing to do the jobs you have open, you absolutely have to ask “are we making it worth people’s while?”
    .
    Dunno, dstor. What’s it worth to a potential soldier to be taught to kill as your main job and have any meaningful prospects of a normal life commandeered by a policy perpetual war? I don’t think there’s enough money to overcome that reality. If you have a choice, you won’t go… if you have no other economic choices, you go, regardless of the pay, and pray daily that you live through it.
    .
    Doesn’t matter what kind of marketing spin you would put on the ads, recent history would be an albatross around your efforts.
    .
    I took my son to a college open house at a local HS the other day. The uniformed services were represented. We visited the local ANG recruiter and talked. I was shocked at how young both of the representatives were. They looked like babies.
    .
    I was wearing my “Retired AF” cap and told them that, while I admitted that the services offered some worthwhile training in many fields, I could NOT in all good conscience recommend that my son enlist, given the “fun and games” happening right now.
    .
    I looked both of the young men in the eye and asked if they understood what I meant by that statement. Both smiled and nodded and made no attempt to contradict what I said. We shook hands and left – nothing more was said.
    .
    An Israeli-style draft would be fine with me, with an alternative of some sort of service like the Peace Corps.
    .
    Because, if the draft had simply been continued after Vietnam (with the OBVIOUS loopholes closed), I don’t think we would be having this discussion.

  • southernbell49

    We need a draft. If we had a draft, politicians would be more careful about sending soldiers in harm’s way. I know it says something not quite so nice about human beings that we can ignore a war unless they are scared of it directly impacting their lives (such as losing a child who was drafted) but that is the reality.

    Also, I KNOW that if there was a draft, gays would be serving openly in the armed forces because otherwise many young people would be claiming to be gay to get out of serving.

    I’m fifty and old enough to remember the Viet Nam War. Even though I grew up in the Deep South (MS) but the late 60s and early 70s many southerners were against the war. The first funeral I attended in 1968 was for a young man who had smoked cigarettes soaked in iodine because he heard doing so would cause a spot to show up on your lungs. That bit of folklore was not true of course and six months after leaving our hometown, he came back in a coffin.

  • afguy

    Sean,
    .
    Today, war is a video game that most of the population can turn off if they get bored.
    .
    We should have done exactly what you suggest. Or,at the very least, funded the efforts out in the open so everyone could get a real sense of its financial cost.
    .
    What happened was just about party politics and winning an election.

  • destor23

    @all: My feelings about Afghanistan are about the same as my feelings about street crime. Or is there something wrong with me not signing up to be a police officer, too? When it escalated into a wider war and occupation and the government used stop-losses to keep people from leaving after their commitments were up a trust was broken. Without stop losses the government would have had to ask for help from the general population, the population would have balked and the scope of the war would have been reduced.

    Which brings me to @AFguy: We have to stop the use of the stop loss. I suspect that’s really the deal killer for a lot of people who might want to sign up for a limited term. As for the Peace Corps idea for peaceniks like me — the individualist in me is just not into the idea of mandatory service. Offer me something in exchange and I’ll think about it.

  • allthingsinaname

    “Because, if the draft had simply been continued after Vietnam (with the OBVIOUS loopholes closed), I don’t think we would be having this discussion.”
    .
    And that is the crux of it! If it is because of some high moral standard that I do not serve then, those that serve must be immoral. Hence the crap I faced in Vietnam.
    .
    If our Military doesn’t reflect our society then neither will our wars.

  • afguy

    What exactly is, and has been, the holdup on just declaring war on Al-Qaida?
    .
    Sean,
    .
    Al-Qeida’s more of a corporation, with branches located in MANY places, than a country.
    .
    How do you declare war on something like that? How do you know if you’ve won?
    .
    It’s not like they have a national headquarters you can capture.

  • GivenUp

    because there are some serious legal issues to declaring war on an NGO, international law is not set up with that in mind, we should treat them like any criminal organization, that is what they are.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    I agree with your point about a draft, southernbell49. Charlie Rangel, for all his faults, has been making that point for a long while.
    -
    Another possibility is shifting to a much smaller military, which will lessen the temptation of political leaders to treat American GIs as “toy soldiers to be moved around on some global game board,” as Colin Powell, of all people, once put it.
    -
    There’s another view of patriotism out there, one that’s been near dead for at least 50 years, but its appeal has always been plausible.

    What is the rule of honor to be observed by a power so strongly and so advantageously situated as this Republic is? Of course I do not expect it meekly to pocket real insults if they should be offered to it. But, surely, it should not, as our boyish jingoes wish it to do, swagger about among the nations of the world, with a chip on its shoulder, shaking its fist in everybody’s face. Of course, it should not tamely submit to real encroachments upon its rights. But, surely, it should not, whenever its own notions of right or interest collide with the notions of others, fall into hysterics and act as if it really feared for its own security and its very independence. As a true gentleman, conscious of his strength and his dignity, it should be slow to take offense. In its dealings with other nations it should have scrupulous regard, not only for their rights, but also for their self-respect. With all its latent resources for war, it should be the great peace power of the world. It should never forget what a proud privilege and what an inestimable blessing it is not to need and not to have big armies or navies to support.

  • allthingsinaname

    “the individualist in me is just not into the idea of mandatory service. Offer me something in exchange and I’ll think about it.”
    .
    You could volunteer, that is what Gates was asking but, that you will not do.
    .
    I do not know why you posted to begin with. You could have just as well said that I do not wish to serve rather then serve up some excuses why someone else isn’t, or implying perhaps that is the reason you don’t.

  • destor23

    @all: So binary. If I say I have no interest in serving because I pretty much never support what the military does, I can also respect your right to disagree. I’m just saying let people make up their own minds. A draft takes that right away.

  • allthingsinaname

    Well I thought being a Marine would do it, boy was I wrong.

  • afguy

    As for the Peace Corps idea for peaceniks like me — the individualist in me is just not into the idea of mandatory service. Offer me something in exchange and I’ll think about it.
    .
    I wonder what your “individualistic” outlook would be like if the draft had simply been a part of the growing up process, like getting a driver’s license?
    .
    We grew up with it and just accepted changes indraft classification as part of life. The bad part was the loopholes regarding college attendance and marriage. Colleges were hip deep in business and fine arts majors in the late ’60s. As long as the parents had money they stayed in school… and changed majors like underwear.
    .
    Men where I went to church admitted that their marriages and pregnancies were intentional and timed based on changes in the draft laws for deferments.
    .
    We killed the draft and so brought forth a whole generation or two with NO concept of a draft or national service. “Looking out for number one” became the national goal.
    .
    Right after that, we had a president who ran on the position of “Are you better off than you were 4 years ago?”
    .
    FEW of you would be giving national/military service a second thought, if that were the norm now, and had been for your parents and grandparents. That it wasn’t is a tall mountain we are going to have to climb to get back some sense of “debt to country”.

  • allthingsinaname

    Look I hear you but that isn’t how a society works. What you want is some sort of Anarchy. Everyone does there own thing, we tried that it, really doesn’t work.
    .
    It was fun while it lasted though. :)

  • afguy

    …we should treat them like any criminal organization, that is what they are.
    .
    So was the Mafia, located in Sicily for generations.
    .
    What do you do if the home countries don’t consider them the enemy?

  • nflfoghorn

    “we tell ourselves Dulce et Decorum est Pro patria mori”
    .
    translate the Greek, pls/

  • afguy

    Visited the same bars I did, didn’t you, allthings?

  • destor23

    @af and all: we’re probably at the point where I have nothing new to say. Pleasure debating both of you and I hope you both understand that my own objections to the draft or to our country’s military choices past and present don’t in anyway mean I don’t appreciate and respect the service that you both have provided. That goes for any veteran, of course.

  • allthingsinaname

    I have been seeing that Thursday comment for sometime now trying to figure out what it meant. It just hit me; how dense am I?
    .
    Hanging my head down, feeling foolish.
    .
    On the brighter side, I refrain most days.

  • destor23

    “It is sweet and fitting to die for one’s country.” -Horace

    It has it’s own Wikipedia entry!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulce_et_decorum_est_pro_patria_mori

  • allthingsinaname

    Thanks for the discussion.

  • allthingsinaname

    Most Assuredly.

  • afguy

    Another possibility is shifting to a much smaller military, which will lessen the temptation of political leaders to treat American GIs as “toy soldiers to be moved around on some global game board,” as Colin Powell, of all people, once put it.
    .
    Look to Israel as the lab for the advantages (and disadvantages) of a small military.
    .
    First, any action they take has to be short and decisive. They aren’t small by choice – it’s a population limitation. Their military actions tend to be almost savage at times, because they don’t have the luxury of being able to conduct an extended campaign.
    .
    Should we go small (as we did after Vietnam with the first of the all-volunteer force), you HAVE to keep the experience. Anyone retires or separates, you have a big hole to fill. To keep them, you have to up the pay. Unfortunately, if you up the pay, then you start to get those whose primary motivation IS the pay, not dedication to the mission. Not hypothetical – this happened.
    .
    And, what happens if you have to up the numbers because the new mission demands it… do you rely on volunteers? (and here we go again.)
    .
    I still think that a universal requirement is the way to go. Once it becomes the norm for EVERYONE, the objections decrease.

  • afguy

    Same here, destor.

  • afguy

    allthings,
    .
    On Thursdays, I really try…
    .
    However, on other days, sometimes one of the resident “jerk-wads” just hits me wrong. Sometime last night, I finally had my fill of that sanctimonious old cretin 3xfire3 and lit into him like I hadn’t done in MONTHS.
    .
    I don’t mind having a spirited discussion with conservatives with a clear point-of-view – it’s the ones that don’t even make the attempt to present their ideological case that I have no use for.

  • GivenUp

    Find ways to kill their funding, work diplomatically with the countries that harbor them and apply whatever pressure is possible to bring them to justice, anything short of starting a war, we already know that doesn’t work.
    .
    The whole idea of a “war on terror” is highly misplaced, terrorism needs to be treated as a law enforcement problem or we are only causing more trouble for ourselves.

  • allthingsinaname

    Which is the real reason we are so careful with Israel. What do they use when a small military fails?
    .
    We in effect become their larger Military.

  • nflfoghorn

    thx.

  • GivenUp

    The real issue would be to get the military to buy into the idea. The generals really don’t want the draft, an all volunteer force is much more effective and professional than a draft force, not to mention cheaper.

  • squirmz

    Afguy,

    What about serious service-based entitlements, commeasurate to the sacrifices made? In a fictional book I once read, the only citizens with the right to vote were those who had served in the military. I think that’s extreme, but I do not think offering non-monetary priviledges that no other citizens would get, is unsupportable.

    That said, I have no problems with a 100% requirement of some sort of military or civilian service. Instilling “freedom isn’t free” values would help our society in many ways. For one I think it would increase the involvment of the historically lazy citizen in government. At least people would care more who our CIC was pointing the gun at when it was their potential bacon thrown in the fire.

  • afguy

    The generals really don’t want the draft, an all volunteer force is much more effective and professional than a draft force, not to mention cheaper.
    .
    Until you start to use them up… like now. What do you do when the volunteers don’t “volunteer” any more?
    .
    Can’t simply walk over and turn on the “manpower spigot”…

  • afguy

    squirmz,
    .
    You got my point.
    .
    As for the compensation issue, you want people to believe in what they are doing, NOT because you bribed them.
    .
    I was a manager in the AF. I asked kids who were separating why they wouldn’t re-up. More pay, while “nice to get” wasn’t the main reason they stated for leaving. It was putting up with the unnecessary BS.
    .
    You start emphasizing the pay, and pretty soon you get “mercenaries” who are in it FOR the pay.

  • allthingsinaname

    In order for a Democracy to work it must have the consent of the people. It would seem that we are losing that consent. It is a deep rooted problem. The discourse of our National Leaders is much to blame.

  • formerlyjames

    Thompson’s previous linked post is much more informative than this report on a speech by a clog in the system.
    .
    Summary…The Constitution declares that only Congress can declare war. No mention of namby pamby resolutions in fits of media and public hysteria. All citizens should bear the brunt of war when it is necessary (need I mention that the Iraq Attack was totally not necessary?). The cost of the war should be a major consideration as well as it’s effect on our economy (that’s called cost/benefit analysis in our capitalist society). A democracy, even one based on capitalism, cannot survive with resort to mercenary defenders (I take a little liberty in my own interpretation of Thompson’s point).
    .
    I am disgusted with Obama’s wars. He has adopted and embraced them. They are his now. So, come vote time who will I support. Probably the joke of Obama, because the Republican joke is likely to be more laughable. We’ll see.

  • pprboy

    With the end of the draft this country has lost the nonprofessional, Citizen Soldier.
    Somebody who wants it done and over so they can go back to their real life.
    Somebody who is willing to call BS when they see it because they have no military career to damage.
    Somebody who makes it real and personal for more of the folks at home to know and miss.
    Thats what the end of involving everyone in the military has done.
    We haven’t had that “we are all in this together” attitude since WWII.

  • afguy

    You might include the Korean War, pprboy.
    .
    Two words – Ted Willams.
    .
    Joined the Marines as a pilot during the height of his fame and gave up 4 years from a Hall-of-Fame baseball career.
    .
    There was SOMETHING different then, pprboy. Opinions might differ as to what it was, but a number of the famous and influential worked their ways INTO the military during that period, NOT out of it.

  • http://elvisberg.wordpress.com Elvis Elvisberg

    Look to Israel as the lab for the advantages (and disadvantages) of a small military.
    -
    I submit that Israel’s experience in that regard isn’t relevant to us. We are separated from our adversaries by oceans. Israel is separated from countries that have invaded it by a few yards.
    -
    Our experience is more ably summed up by Adam Smith:

    In great empires the people who live in the capital, and in the provinces remote from the scene of action, feel, many of them, scarce any inconveniency from the war; but enjoy, at their ease, the amusement of reading in the newspapers the exploits of their own fleets and armies. To them this amusement compensates the small difference between the taxes which they pay on account of the war, and those which they had been accustomed to pay in time of peace. They are commonly dissatisfied with the return of peace, which puts an end to their amusement, and to a thousand visionary hopes of conquest and national glory from a longer continuance of the war.

  • afguy

    Elvis,
    .
    If Israel were to face an adversary with a large population advantage, their size would matter.
    .
    Israel was lured into an extended invasion of Lebanon in the past and the large numbers of troops and supplies needed for that operation pointed out their weaknesses. When they suffer casualties or captives, they feel it a LOT more than we do because EVERYONE is involved. No detached group or bankers and bond traders sitting to the side, watching, and exclaiming, “That’s just terrible… another glass of wine, anyone? I got my bonus today!”
    .
    We are Israel’s contingency plan for any large-scale operation inthe area. At the very least, we are expected to replace their hardware losses. Or, if they can manage to convince us, to take the military action ourselves.

  • formerlyjames

    afguy, good point, Korea, the lost war. That was the last noble, necessary, unavoidable war. None since that I can think of. The Korean War was forgotten, but it was the end of anything resembling honorable. We won’t get into the right wing MacArthur and his crapping on it all. That would only diminish your point.

  • formerlyjames

    I thought of one more, Bosnia, but no real comparison.

  • http://www.flickr.com/hubbmax hubbmax

    “For most Americans the wars remain an abstraction, a distant and unpleasant series of news items that do not affect them personally.”
    HAH!!
    Pissing away all that money [just an "abstraction" I guess] on insane, open-ended orgies of destruction does not affect us personally…….?

  • artraveler

    Well, you probably have 40% of the American people who don’t see any reason why we went into Iraq at all and why Bush didn’t go in, take care of the Taliban, and get out of Afganistan. The SCOTUS just represents the rest of us and the fact that we have chewed up or lost a large number of young people who went to serve their country and to what end?

    All we did was make sure Halliburton (hey, Cheney!), KBR and others made a lot of money and everyone else had the privilege of paying for it.

  • apr2563

    Pat Tillman. Joined because felt duty to serve. Killed in friendly fire. Military lied. A real recruiting tool.

  • apr2563

    The war affects me and many others. I makes us sick at heart that the neo cons and their enablers sent our young men and women to a premptive war that was based on lies and greed.

  • afguy

    apr2563,
    .
    Pat Tillman was unique for this era… a “throwback”, if you will.
    .
    I’m hard pressed to think of other examples such as his, where someone turned down THAT much money to serve.

  • afguy

    hubbmax,
    .
    The money we “pissed” away was kept “off-budget” by supplemental appropriations.
    .
    So we never got the sense of how much it was costing us.

  • Mr. Nice Guy

    One thing I haven’t seen mentioned, that greatly contributes to the “chasm” between soldiers and civilians, is the nearly complete lack of “real” coverage of the war(s).
    .
    As a kid, I remember seeing the coverage of Vietnam, with bodies on the ground, as they fell. That left a lasting impression. Bush, with his sanitized, “don’t look behind the curtain” approach, is robbing us of the real costs of these never-ending wars. It’s easy to dismiss the reality that soldiers face as “insignificant” because of the disconnect.
    .
    The draft and real coverage of what’s going on would have a profound effect on our interest in continuing these wars.

  • afguy

    Most definitely, MNG.
    .
    You need something to slap the populace up beside the head, and make them pay attention, lacking any personal skin in the game, that it.
    .
    You need some way of saying, “This is the price of this little ‘adventure’… are YOU sure it’s worth it, with the lives of your friends and family on the line?”

  • apr2563

    You are so right Mr. Nice Guy. I can remember watching reports from Vietnam from the early 60s on. It made me really think about our mission there, a country I don’t think I had ever heard of before. By 64 I knew it was a horrible mistake.
    .
    The traditional media today seems to encourage wars, covers the initial pyrotechnics, and then, except for a few brave reporters, leaves the area.
    .
    They would rather spend their resources on political punditry, scandal, and gamesmanship. And, of course, never take responsibility for outcomes.

  • apr2563

    You are correct also about the draft. We all knew men serving in Vietnam. Once the college deferment was removed, the war became even more relevent to citizens.

    We had a friend serving who would get ill everytime he was sent to the “front”. He would be sent back for examination and then returned to battle. This happened to him 3 times. They thought he was malingering. Finally, he was diagnosed with a tubular growth and sent home.
    This gave us a good sense of the insanity. It was all body counts.

  • http://www.flickr.com/hubbmax hubbmax

    afguy:
    My anger is not directed at you, but just a reminder: What do you mean by “piss-ED” away, and “WAS” kept off-budget, and “never GOT” the sense, and “WAS costing us” ?
    Does anyone think the waste is over because we’ve learned some kind of message?

  • afguy

    No, I was just using the term you used (pissed).
    .
    As for the off-budget part, it was just brought up as a supplemental and voted on. No real discussion of it like there would have been if it had been part of the overall budget. And, under a “supplemental”, is there quite as much detail as to how the money is to be spent?
    .
    The way things were done, voting against the “supplemental”, “knowing” what it was for, would have been considered as “unpatriotic”.
    .
    Wonder what the public would have felt, seeing this enormous budget with this big chunk going toward a war, staring them in the face? Different impact? Who knows?
    .
    As it was, the “bad news” came in two waves. It lessened the impact, and I definitely think THAT was intentional.

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